Convince an Atheist

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    drevil007

    I’m an agnostic but this is beyond stupid. Faith is belief without proof. Asking for proof is a waste of time and pointing out the lack of proof only indicates how ignorant the one asking for proof is in regards to faith. Faith does not need proof; that is why it is called faith not fact.

    tiki god

    so what exactly are people having faith in if there’s no proof? faith that their parents and Rabi and priests haven’t lied to them? Faith that they haven’t been using religion for nefarious reasons?

    If you have faith in a thing, and you say that thing is real, you better god damn better be able to point at something and prove it’s there, or you’re just a crazy person with “faith” that the stove is plotting against you with the toaster.

    Hendell

    Really the problem is one of goals. If the Atheist wants proof that a god exists (the premise of the picture) then faith or belief are not relevant because they are something completely different.

    The trick would be to convince the Atheist that proof is meaningless because the point is to have faith in something greater than yourself (specific religious trappings aside) that helps you think about the world in a less self centered light.

    tiki god

    faith in something greater than yourself

    I have plenty of faith like that, but it’s all shit that I can see or prove the existence of.

    helps you think about the world in a less self centered light.

    that’s a pretty loaded statement, most atheists I know already have that world thought, afterall if we’re not waiting on a space god to come down and save us from ourselves, who else is going to fix the problems we see but ourselves?

    jeffapotimus

    Faith is the belief in something absent evidence for that belief. That’s the literal meaning. I really don’t understand how the FUCK the first response to that is always “B-B-But how can you have faith in something that you can’t prove?” GAAAAAAHHHH! Yes, religion is used for nefarious reasons. Guess what? So is math. and education. and science. Get the fuck over it. People base their lives and world-view on social and political systems that have nothing to do with religion, in which bullshit is still a functional component. “…most atheists I know already have that world thought, afterall if… Read more »

    tiki god

    Yes, religion is used for nefarious reasons. Guess what? So is math. and education. and science.

    you lost me there, someone’s using math for nefarious reasons? I mean, other than mad scientists in movies, what would be a good example of that?

    jeffapotimus

    Tiki,

    In the 1990’s after the cold war ended, Lockheed and Boeing and Ratheon and all the other merchants of death that had been harvesting the best and brightest mathematicians from the ivy league in order to advance the cause of mass murder all of a sudden found they could no longer match the offers coming from AIG and Goldman who wanted advance the cause of economic exploitation.

    That’s one example.

    tiki god

    so you’re saying that math is compelling those people to do bad things?

    they’re doing bad things in the name of math?

    it doesn’t line up and it’s a pretty stupid example, but that’s where most religious/faith arguments start to fall apart

    jeffapotimus

    hmmmm… nope, but you’re almost there. You see, that’s actually NOT what I’m saying. I was trying to show you where YOUR argument falls apart. Scroll up.

    jeffapotimus

    “I have plenty of faith like that, but it’s all shit that I can see or prove the existence of.”

    I know you know better than this. Anyone that has been in a serious relationship does.

    Do you love your (GF/BF/Spouse/SO)? Do you trust them? Completely? Great!

    Please provide evidence that they will not (lie/hurt/cheat/fuck you over). Show all work.

    tiki god

    there’s a point when you’re just banging your head against the floor in anger and no one’s going to bother to respond to you cause you’re getting your blood all over the place.

    this is it sadly.

    jeffapotimus

    OK, well I’m sorry that your head hurts. The post title is “Convince an Atheist” and you know I’m always game.

    I’ll just end by saying that y’all need to stop pretending that religion invented violence, and pulling random, indefensible, dusty old quotes from the Bible instead of actually talking to someone about their beliefs.

    You all have a very cartoonish view of it all, and not because you are stupid or incapable of understanding.

    I know it feels good to be all smug and superior, but remember that’s one of your biggest problems with my side as well.

    Gropegrope

    Belief without proof….?

    You mean unfounded, unsubstantiated faith.

    Belief with proof….belief with evidence…?
    That’s sound reasoning and logic.
    Quite the opposite of ignorance.

    Imagine a god who wants to punish those who think for themselves and act upon evidence.
    Nope….I don’t have faith in that kind of god.

    jeffapotimus

    Yeah, me neither. Lets make a deal, if you stop fucking assuming you understand my belief system, and stop accusing me of being a small-minded, prejudiced, ignoramus, I won’t accuse you of rebranding my ethical system and pretending you were the first to think it up, and being some sort of amoral monster who is a danger to the fabric of society.

    Because I have an open mind, I know better. Fucking try it some time.

    Gropegrope

    Why would you even mention “some sort of amoral monster”….? Unless your belief system has a habit of branding me as one. And “my ethical system”…? Your “ethical system” (or some variant of it) has developed independently in multiple cultures across the history and geography of this planet. Your “ethical system” is the evolution and codification of behaviors necessary to build a civilization and prevent is from slipping into anarchy. Not the edict from some divine sky king. Morality enforced by the threat of eternal damnation is not morality…its fear. True morality is the realization that this is the only… Read more »

    jeffapotimus

    I agree with absolutely everything you say about my ethical system. Our ethical system. Yours and mine. “Independently in multiple cultures across the history and geography of this planet.” Well said. Quite a fucking coincidence tho, huh? I like the fact that you use the word evolution, please keep in mind that it’s only the truly zealous idiots that still maintain “My grandaddy weren’t no monkey!” Now please tell me of the social evolutionary successes of all the great and ancient godless civilizations. Now, I only mention “amoral monster” for the same reason you mention “divine sky king” and “eternal… Read more »

    Gropegrope

    Wow. Your religion openly calls its god “the king of heaven” (doesn’t that mean divine sky king…?) and preaches eternal damnation. Not my words….Christian words. In my opinion: yes, complete bullshit….but still the words of your church. How can you say they aren’t when the evidence is in most of your Christian writings…? And my use of these phrases is not in any way the same thing as the assertion that atheist lack morality (whether facetious or not) Your assertion that Christians don’t literally believe these things isn’t based on the evidence. The 1992 Chatechism of the Catholic states “the… Read more »

    jeffapotimus

    “Evangelical” is not a brand, it encompasses many people of faith besides mouth-breathers and born-agains. Many moderate and reasonable people are members of a denomination that fits in the evangelical category. Hysterical morons that think they see demons at the walmart have come to exemplify the term. It’s a real fucking tragedy that they’ve given the rest of us such a bad name, but they are NOT the majority. They are just the loudest voices in Christianity right now. I will concede that the existence of “hell” may still be the official position of the Vatican as last revisited 23… Read more »

    Gropegrope

    So your threshold of proof (at least in the religious realm) is much, much, much lower than mine.
    Duh.
    Kinda the point of the thread.

    As for all the other shit you said…
    Wow.
    Just….wow.

    How does one even attempt a rational discussion with that….?

    jeffapotimus

    That’s a neat rhetorical trick, I’mma try now: Wow. I mean just… Wow…. Wow. You’re just… wow. Once again, IF IT WAS PROVABLE THAN IT WOULDN’T REQUIRE FAITH. WE WOULD USE A DIFFERENT FUCKING WORD FOR IT. I mean, c’mon. wow Now, a word on science, which we can all agree is pretty useful and cool, right? Throughout history, science has often disabused people of their silly notions about the nature of the universe. Scientists would disprove something widely held as truth, and then, after a time, we could all enjoy ridiculing people for still believing in a flat earth,… Read more »

    jeffapotimus

    It’s OK, I’m used to people feigning exasperation when I make a compelling point.

    Happens a lot, actually.

    Gropegrope

    “I want to convince my atheist friends that God exists….But they want proof.” You’ve done a lot of tap-dancing around the definition of belief without evidence. Faith you call it. OK. I don’t think I’ve actually disputed that. It’s just that I need more evidence than you do to believe. I guess I’m not capable of what you call faith. I see a much more logical and likely explanation for morality, law, even the advent of religion. And just about everything else. The fact that there are gaps in our knowledge does not necessitate we automatically need to fill that… Read more »

    jeffapotimus

    You’re right that I didn’t articulate the time-travel hypothetical well enough (and also I shouldn’t have said 10 chapters when I was only referencing the first). My point was that the Genesis story is older than written language. Older than the concept of a heliocentric universe, older than germ theory – we’re talking about people that literally thought that disease was the result of some sort of curse rather than the fact that they were shitting in their drinking water. It was passed down in a 10,000 year game of telephone until writing was invented it was recorded in more… Read more »

    Silverwolf

    jeffapotimus, I wanted to reply to your comment but there’s no reply button showing. I just want to say… I bow down to you respectfully, sir. Very well said. Now, I will proceed to offer my own insight into this matter. First of all, yes, it’s infuriating that people demand proof for a belief, which is exactly as infuriating as someone quoting scripture to prove to you that God exists. It’s a fallacious argument, in terms of the art of intellectual debate. Yes, you have every right to doubt and question something that cannot be proven, but ridiculing a hypthesis… Read more »

    RalphTheDog

    ^ TLDR
    y’all can suck my heathen balls.

    Kik Dogg

    I thought you could lick them yourself?

    Jac

    God will neber give you more than you can handle. Unless you’re a Tsunami victim or some crap like that.

    jeffapotimus

    Jesus. Aside from on the TeeVee, have any of you actually ever even seen a christian (that’s basically what we’re talking about here, right?) Or talked to one that wasn’t an ex-con, a recovering drug addict with two remaining brain cells, or holding a ‘God Hates Fags’ sign?

    Seriously, you should get out more.

    Jac

    Never, not neber. Jesus, see what he made me do?

    i have an opinion, it’s the correct one
    your’s wrong

    drew

    Truth requires neither witness nor proof. Belief seems require a fan club of some sort; usually a large, wealthy fan club. Also, violence. Belief, for some reason, often has a lot of violence associated with it. Truth can defend itself quite nicely.
    When was the last time someone strapped a bomb to himself because someone else called Pi a bad name? Seen any fist fights over the speed of light?
    Now, try to list all the wars fought in the name of belief.

    jeffapotimus

    I actually have seen a fist fight over the speed of light (sort of, the subject was relativity). It was kind of hilarious. And seriously, be fair. There are many wars that have been fought over non-religious ideologies, and many between those who share the same religion (and even the same pope). I’m not saying that everybody involved didn’t think that God was on their side, or that religious beliefs and inspiration was not present at the squad level, so to speak. Thats just human nature. Literally, when they find a bunch of bones buried in the ground, they look… Read more »

    notspamming

    [img]http://i.imgur.com/jJLAVpV.gif[/img]

    Animus

    Religion is amazing – it is something no one needs, yet people constantly fight over.