Proof that concealed carry permit holders live in a dream world

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    Novices go in; errors come out. You can’t explain that.


    This is the equivalent of grabbing a bunch of random black people off the street, putting them in a classroom and trying to explain the technical details of quantum mechanics to them in ten minutes. Since none of them will be actually capable of understanding it, it “proves” that those who think black people can be educated live in a dream world.


    Not so. If police officers lose the skills to react quickly enough in situations like this, and they too endanger people around the incident, then a vast majority will not be prepared for a crazy gunman pulling out his gun (much less if there are two of them).


    Every time you post here, it is like you are trying to explain painting to Jan van Eyck, meanwhile you write your name on the walls with your own poop.

    Please don’t post on this website anymore.


    Clearly you don’t understand the nuances of fecal expressionism.


    Neither do I. But I know that Andres Serrano has done some quite interesting works.


    Only a concealed carry permit holder living in a dream world would compare an attempt to demonstrate that panic greatly reduces effectiveness to learning quantum physics.
    Shooting a gun straight is a relatively easy skill to acquire.
    Being able to do so in a life or death situation….not so easy…


    Lmao Man I saw this video years ago, even before I was a conceal carry holder, and even then I saw so many glaring problems with the whole exercise. If anyone thinks this is proof, then I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell.

    The problem with not just this little exercise, but with any that are being run by either idiots, or people looking to make the point they want to make is that the deck is stacked the way they want it to be. For instance Republicans have a few studies saying video games cause violence. Democrats have ones that say guns cause violence. Neither are right. The studies use Correlation. If you exclude enough from your study you can make any study turn out and say what you want it to turn out. Both are wrong because even though violent crime is at a 50 year low here in the united states (and it continues to drop) we still have a few problems that are actually driving violent crimes, and none of it is related to games, or firearms. One is poverty. One is mental illness. And one is drug crimes. Those are your three main causes of violent crimes.

    Maybe if we stopped sticking our nose into other countries business, and stop going to fucking war, and spent the money here on the mental health of our people, and built education back up, and stopped protecting the god damn wealthy, and destroying the middle class, and stop fighting a drug war we will never win, that puts money into the pocket of violent criminals who kill to keep making millions, and build a health care system that the woulds gold standard for care, instead of only a for profit system, we might see some real changes. But no both sides are to busy pointing at each other blaming inanimate objects, instead of focusing on the real problems. That’s because the real problems take effort to change, and fix. The others allow people to whine on facebook, and forums without using any effort at all much less thought.


    See, now only a concealed carry permit holder living in a dream world would call a bunch of police firearms experts and trainers “idiots”.
    Further reinforcing the actual point…..


    Disingenuous to accord all cops ‘impartiality’ on an issue, when they are hired and promoted in anti-gun jurisdictions by anti-gun politicians. A recent brilliant display of alleged expertise when a crowd of uniformed ‘experts’ blew away the crazy lady barrier crasher in DC. No … she wasn’t armed … but she frightened them. Don’t mess with an ‘expert’ and his comfort zone!


    Are you implying the cops intentionally taught the subjects to “mess up”….or that the experiment was somehow skewed…?
    Interesting. How so…?

    And your choice of example is very telling.
    If a well trained police force can’t do the right thing with all their guns because of the panic of the moment, then I wonder what we should expect from a much less trained civilian population…?
    I think you’ve just reinforced the findings of the experiment….


    Yup. They knew what they wanted to discover and they set it up accordingly. Wearing bird cages on one’s head? The ‘perp’ is not subject to tunnel vision and is amazingly unaffected by the presence of an opposing weapon? A SINGLE venue is used to represent the case when reality suggests a host of possibilities?
    The video clips showing the danger posed to others by citizen shooters is egregiously one-sided if no examples are given of the number of innocents whacked by cops every year. “A well-trained police force”. Hmm. There is a tremendous range of training from horrible and almost non-existent to the few well-funded elites (usually fed). I guess you need that premise to make your argument work? That would be a triumph of the narrative over critical thinking. CCW types need training in most jurisdictions. So do cops. Results may vary although so far cops win by a huge margin in the slaughter of innocents. There are some Katrina survivors who might speak to the wisdom of cops having exclusive access to firearms. And when did lefties start lining up behind the cops? That’s hilarious. Must go flip through LA TImes, WaPo, NYT etc.


    have you seen videos of our police? a lot are idiots,just with power


    Summary of your points in relation to this video:

    #1: I saw this before, this ain’t proof.
    #2: Studies can’t be trusted because there are bad ones out there.

    Welp, I’m convinced.


    Yes! You ridiculous oversimplification and misrepresentation of what he said completely negates his argument. You did not commit the straw man logical fallacy in anyway!

    I do not wish for a thousand penises to cream in your butthole at once!!

    Doc Shadow

    You hit the mail on the head with your comments on what the real sources of crime/violence are. Drug crimes could almost be rolled into the problems of poverty and mental health as a large number of such crimes are committed by people who are too poor to seek any meaningful help and are instead self-medicating their mental health issues. But there are a variety of drug related crimes, and so it does deserve to stand on its own.

    Although our research on the connection between guns and crime rate is primarily correlational, it is much better than simply reasoning by anecdote. The deficiencies you point out, though, are very real. It is very easy to create samples biased by geography or demography that are then used to reason for the nation at large. There have been some very good studies that use widely representational samples and possess very little bias. Stunningly they conclude that the issues is terribly complex and that we mostly need to address tangential issues rather than passing token reforms. However, there is one area of research that strongly indicates a connection between the presence of guns and death… suicide rates. When a gun is available there is a greater likelihood that depressed or otherwise mentally ill individuals will commit suicide; in part this may be because the action can be immediately committed to, low chance of failure, and the lack of pain in the process of death. Once again, the primary connection between guns and violence is mental health and even then we need to be concerned about self-targeted violence rather than these individuals harming anyone else.


    I love how an erronious test, with atypical subjects, given by a completely slanted panel is “PROOF.”

    Matt S.

    probably using all anti-gun subjects as well.


    So the bottom line is:
    in stressful situation, people react randomly\badly, and unused skills disappear.
    Damn, Nobel Prize guaranteed.


    You forgot the part about those very people having guns and not being able to defend themselves and possibly harming others around them.

    Spelling out the obvious (the earth is older than 6000 years, evolution occurs/ed, sex education helps, condoms prevent STDs, economy) is par for the course when you’re talking to conservatives in the US.

    I wish it were not so.


    Concealed Carry Holders are living in a dream world? Hmmm, let’s see here…you’d rather be a “non” Carry Holder? That makes you an obvious victim, most likely a dead one. “Non” Carry means you can run scared (and get shot) or lay there and hide in the fetal position waiting to be shot. Not me, I’d rather live in a Concealed Carry “dream world” and have the chance to make a difference in a threat situation.
    p.s. don’t forget to practice your “no, please don’t shoot me” speach.


    Pull a gun and you’re the first target….kinda like shouting “please shoot me!”
    Better hope all that “training” you’ve done doesn’t wither in the excitement of the moment…like it does for the majority of folks…


    “Pull a gun and you’re the first target” – wouldn’t that depend on one’s location (range, geometry, cover)vis a vis the shooter/s? Where in the sequence pull, aim, shoot, go the words “please don’t shoot me”? Actually … after you’ve fired a couple of rounds it might serve to confuse the in some way democrat affiliated gunman/men. So …good one. In summary don’t be armed in case you become excited. Still fairly exciting to be executed isn’t it?


    Statistically….gun owning families are 3 times more likely to suffer an accidental death or suicide than non gun owning families.
    These deaths are much, much, much more common than being in mass shooter situation.
    And there’s really no proof that having a gun in a mass shooting situation improves your chance of survival.
    So all things considered…I’d rather play the odds toward the safe side…


    One shouldn’t confuse media coverage with how stuff goes down. A shooting becomes a mass shooting when it is not interrupted. There are a great number of examples of incidents terminated early (before they become mass) by the always brave sometimes armed. Whatever your personal preference it shouldn’t impede on the safety and freedom of others.


    Better to die trying than to hide and wait for it. Part of training is also to fire from a secure position. Those in the video just fire from an open standing position, like a bad old west showdown. Thats why they call it training. Learn to do it right and practice. If as you say that I may be the first to be shot, so be it, I’d die a hero trying to stop it…gun controllers will also die…just as cowards.


    You have my permission to live in that little “dream world” of yours and I give myself and my family to stay as far the hell away from you as I can.

    I sum it this way, I don’t carry and I never will, in fact, I chose now to live as far away from a country full of macho-knuckleheads like you; living in some façade dimension that actually believe you are going to be any good to anyone, especially yourself.
    I’m a US Marine vet, a multi decorated marksman, we went into Afghanistan with the best trained, best equipped and most ready top unit.

    No one, I mean no one, out-scored our unit – every single one us were top-brass ready – we could take down anything blind-folded. No enemy combatant was going to be standing by the time we left country.
    Long-story short – we were 18 going in, we left country with only 6 of us remaining, 4 wounded, 3 of those maimed for life.

    So go ahead ass-wipe – you have my full unfiltered permission to live in your little “dream world”.


    None of the above statements address that many concealed carry permits require no training, just like in the video. No training in how to handle a gun, gets and others killed.

    The point of the video, is that you need training, and to continue to train to be “good” with a hand gun.

    Just look at the video!!!!


    Simply not true. There are currently only 5 states that have what is called Constitutional Carry where one can carry without any licence. There are 40 states that are Shall Issue states. They vary on what they require to issue a licence, but very few of them require no training. My state of SC requires a 12 hour class, that requires me to pass a written test showing that I know the law, and also a shooting portion where I can to prove my marksmanship from three ranges. Our state has Reciprocity with 21 other states. That means our state deems that the training that the other states do is as good or better then what we do, and so we as a state respect the CWP of those 21 other states, and vice versa.

    As for being less skilled with a firearm I think you will find that overwhelmingly that most conceal carry holders are better trained with the firearm they use, as shooting is something we find fun to do. Police only have to qualify once a year in most cases, and the department doesn’t give them loads of free ammo to waste. So a police officer has to find time to buy ammo, and shoot his service weapon in his own time. This means in many cases you will find a cwp holder better trained in shooting his weapon then many police who didn’t take the job of a cop because it let me shoot guns, but because he wanted to protect his county.

    So it is a fallacy to think a badge some how makes someone a better shot, and lack of a badge makes a gun owner the opposite.


    Dammit, you make too much sense. You need to let more faggots and trolls like Korinthian post more limpdick banter.


    wow , what a bunch of idiots. …a simple search “clerk shoots” produces videos of people killing/getting killed by robbers and such. but the number of videos showing the bad guys losing out numbers the clerks getting shot. I’ll accept the REAL WORLD EVIDENCE over college kid experiments any day. I’d much rather have a chance at survival than putting myself at the mercy of some scumbag.


    Wow, it takes a complete moron to ignore countless news articles about how ppl, even children, have used guns effectively to stop a criminal breaking into their house, car, etc. But you tools see a slanted video of some fresh noobs with guns in a class and you’re all “proof that.. blah blah blah … dream world.” The only dream world is the one you’ve created. Also, you’ve missed a major point of concealed carry: to have the ability and the freedom to defend yourself and loved ones so you have a chance; so you have the power to practice and be more aware and able to protect yourself, maybe others. In a world where only criminals have guns we’re all sitting ducks.


    And what do you call someone who ignores the fact that gun owning homes are 3 times as likely to experience a gun related accidental death?
    And are no safer from robbery or violence.
    Statistically speaking…..

    Matt S.

    Let’s not forget one tiny little detail when claiming this as “Proof” NO ONE IN THIS EXERCISE WAS IN FEAR OF ACTUALLY LOSING THEIR LIFE. Without the possibility of recreating that exact emotion, this garbage will never hold water.


    Do you think fear or death will make them better shots, faster draws, or more aware of their surroundings?

    Matt S.

    and that is pertinent to this argument how?


    The person I replied to brought up fear of death, the video brought up aim, draw time and awareness of surroundings.

    How is this hard to follow?

    Matt S.

    better shots, faster draws, and better awareness to surroundings are all improvable skills. How is that hard to follow?


    Did you even watch the video? That was addressed. Those are perishable skills that are also reduced in stressful situations. Fearing for your life would qualify as stressful.

    Are you just feeling contradictionary or have you completely lost your train of thought?

    Matt S.

    Well…..I stand corrected…..the video said it’s true, so it MUST be……smh


    I have heard about this clip. First off this was definately staged to drive a point. Look to the attacker…he walks in and shoots the teacher and then automatically goes for the student with the gun who was always seated in the same chair. Wearing gloves always makes it difficult to manipulate anything so pulling a gun will be much more difficult. Wearing a mask/helmet like that alone makes periferal vision difficult and it also muffles hearing.

    Secondly the officer talks about training going away after about a month…most police forces only require their officers to qualify with a firearm twice a year and most officers admit that is the only time they actually ever fire their guns. So much for well trained.

    Finally lets look at the shootout statistics. I have seen something from the FBI that states the average number of innocent civilians shot in a police shootout is 14 where the average number of innocent civilians shot by concealed carry holders is only 2.1.


    That’s simply explained.
    First, I kill the target (in this case it was the teacher) and then go for anyone that may be a threat to myself or someone standing his ground, when I’m done with you – I go back to make sure my initial target out.

    Years and years of training will teach you this. Especially military training in this field: you take out your target based upon no one viably armed and/or a danger to your person or unit. 95% of the time, after your first shot there is going to be pandemonium and chaos, if there are women present there is going to be crying and screaming. Go after the non-runners, the “hiders”, those not cowering.

    I can’t tell you how many times I saw this in real life scenarios – you give me all the stats you want, that’s only 2.1 when you could get the gun out and that’s usually if the perpetrator let’s his guard down to believe no one is armed.

    I can’t repeat this enough – maybe I feel I owe them. I was one part of one of the best trained top units in all of the GD Marines.
    Long-story short – we were 18 going in, we left country with only 6 of us remaining, 4 wounded, 3 of those maimed for life.

    Please don’t flatter yourself Rambo… but please keep going, I so do enjoy reading these pathetic and wishful straw-man arguments.


    Damn that is one condescending tone the narrator uses.


    This seems flawed,
    they seem to sit the the CC people in the same place each time. and also the “attacker” seems to go for the instructor then the gun holder in succession each time implying the attacker has knowledge of there being a gun in the room other than the instructor’s and who and where they are.

    Isn’t that the thing about a CC, it being hidden and unannounced to anyone? I do believe that CC holders need some sort of crisis training to be proficient.


    Lemme see here (not the first time I’ve seen this video)in itemized order:
    1. First, they burden them with the most difficult holster possible, a heavy thumb break model. You may be interested to know that police refer to this style as “Widowmakers,” because they are so slow
    2. Then with the most cumbersome concealment garment possible.
    3. Then they “train” them to hit a target at about six feet (you don’t even have to use the sights at that distance). I might have missed it, but I don’t think they let them practice getting the gun out from under the bulky sweater in training.
    4. Then they put them in a mask, destroying any hope of peripheral vision.
    5. They also give them no tactical training whatsoever in the use of cover and concealment (most CHL training programs cover that).
    6. Finally, they put them in a situation that has them shooting from at least six times the distance they had been practicing from.

    As for the other spurious arguments, as long as it’s going to take police at least 5minutes to even make it to the scene of a shooting, there really are only two options, be prepared to just die, or be prepared to fight.

    I carry everywhere I’m allowed to by law. In the state where I live, that’s quite a few places, most of them, in fact. I’ve had to lay my hand on my weapon twice, one of those times I was forced to draw. The idiot in question came to the conclusion that things were no longer in his favor, and fled…without my money, my life, or that of my wife, who was sitting beside me in the car.

    Here’s my recommendation. If you really hate the idea of people being able to carry a gun. Move your ass to some state where you don’t have to worry about it, and free people don’t have to worry about you, or your politics. I’m sure NY, NJ, CA, MA, or some other disaster in progress would be delighted to have you. So would their felons.

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