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    And let that be a warning to all you young ladies.


    “I’m sorry, I only want to have sex in a secure relationship where I can have a truly intimate experience with a man who loves me enough to publicly commit to spend his life with me. I want to be able to trust him to raise our children and be there with me no matter how difficult life gets. I don’t want to complicate the drama of dating and the important decision of choosing a life partner with the hormone-induced haze created by throwing sex into the mix. I don’t want to worry about if he’ll be there in the morning. I don’t want to be worried about being an unmarried mother and the almost inevitable poverty that follows. And don’t get me started on the risk of disease that I can almost completely eliminate with this decision. Why should I sacrifice this ideal on the sofa of my parents’ basement with someone who doesn’t know me well enough to understand the importance of this to me?”

    If she ends up an old maid, that’s more of an indictment of the men around her than it is of her “antiquated principles.”

    Argue with individual points, if you will, but don’t write off the whole list of valid concerns a young woman may have just because it doesn’t help you get laid. That only disqualifies you from being the caring man she’s looking for.


    You don’t buy a car without test driving it, shoes without trying them on, etc. None of these decisions are even remotely as important as marriage. Why then would you ever marry if you weren’t sure that you could be at least comfortable with your partner sexually? Sex is an important part of every marriage. It can be the force that drives a couple apart.


    You are absolutely right. There are things you need to “test drive” before marriage. Can you work with them to solve problems? Can you get into disagreements and still love them? Do you have compatible philosophies and expectations about family dynamics and child-rearing?

    Is “am I sexually compatible with this person?” one of these things? If it is, it must come after all of these other considerations have been satisfied, because the emotional bond that it forges is so strong that people tend to overlook other issues that will cause serious rifts later in the marriage. (These are the forces that drive couples apart – sex is just a symptom. The split is not about the sex unless the relationship was all about the sex.)

    The honeymoon only lasts so long. To stay happy, you narrow down dating partners to people you can live with before introducing sex. The problem with the cartoon above is that the guy obviously doesn’t understand her, meaning they’ve probably known each other for a very short time and haven’t discussed these things.

    You’re also presupposing that the “sexual compatibility” question is relevant to someone who (through conscious decision) has no other partners from which to draw comparisons. Sex is good. Can someone who hasn’t experimented with various ways of doing things have strictly-defined preferences? Or will two virgins experimenting together in a trusting environment not figure out how to satisfy each other when they are both committed to serving and sacrificing for the other?

    There is a whole philosophy and paradigm behind a person’s decision to wait. You can’t evaluate that decision fairly if you don’t consider that they’re making it with a different paradigm.


    Quick, sincere, not-trying-to-be-a-smartass question:
    Are you married?


    Yes, I’ve been married for ten years, happily, and yes, we both waited. Thanks for asking, as I suppose it is quite relevant to the discussion to know that I’m not speaking completely in hypotheticals; I appreciate the respectful conversation.


    Quick, insincere, trying-to-be-a-smartass question:
    Are you waiting involuntarily?


    Ah, I see the problem here. You’re making a lot of assumptions about a cartoon drawing of a couple you don’t know jack shit about because they don’t exist. For all you know this could be their first date or it could be their 500th.

    The only thing that is clear is that it is their last.


    Yeah, I guess I should have made it more clear that what I’m critiquing is the cartoonist’s caricature of “that girl”. “That girl” actually does exist, but if she waits until the 500th date to tell guys this, she’s got some severe social problems and probably will end up an old maid.

    I was just trying to flesh out the cartoonist’s caricature to make her more realistic. More than likely, if you start dating “that girl” in real life and she’s actually sincere in wanting to stay a virgin, she’ll tell you closer to the first date.


    Let’s just reword that:

    “I’m sorry, I only want to have sex once all of our possessions and money are legally mutually owned.”

    That’s just messed up and horribly materialistic, either that or it’s religiously motivated, and it can be rephrased as:

    “I’m sorry, I don’t want to have sex yet because a magic man told me it was bad”.


    It’s so easy to reduce the entirety of human motivations and belief systems to straw men.
    Come on, I made a short list of her possible motivations precisely so you didn’t have to do that. I even invited people to attack them individually and not write them off. I don’t mind people disagreeing with me; don’t worry, I knew my thoughts would be unpopular.
    By the way, I agree with your assessment of those straw men. Those are horrible motivations for anything.


    But marriage IS just a legal contract to attach your possessions and money. Having a real, committed relationship can occur with or without it, and marrying somone doesn’t require a committed relationship.

    If you haven’t had sex, then your relationship is still in the testing stage, you really don’t know each other -that- intimately yet. Unless sex isn’t ever going to be an important part of the relationship (not to dismiss that as invalid), then agreeing to marriage without having had sex is just foolhardy.


    In response to your first paragraph, that’s a fair interpretation of commitment, and it may work for some people, but not for someone like this girl. In her mind, marriage has a deeper meaning. The act of taking vows will afford her much more emotional security, and any attempt to circumvent that will bring doubts. If a man loves her and is committed to her, why would he not be willing to sacrifice his position here and just make formal vows? In her mind, it’s because he’s not committed to keeping them. That is a deep communication problem that I can’t possibly hope to resolve on an internet forum with two hypothetical parties. All I could do would be to make some observations about the nature of sacrifice in healthy relationships, the importance of communication, etc..

    I’ll make a generalization here and say that people who say they want to wait until marriage are the kind of people to whom marriage is synonymous with a committed relationship. Whether any given individual has the capacity to actually make their marriage work is a different discussion that doesn’t lend itself to generalizations.

    As for your second point, you’re right: two people can’t be fully intimate without sex. But do you need to know a person completely before you can commit to them? What about before you can love them? I would say no, because complete understanding of another human being is a lifelong endeavor. All two people can do is make a calculated wager that they can make a relationship work, and this can be done without knowing the other fully — all that is really required is the combined wills of two people. A basic understanding of the other’s character and values is highly useful as well, but if, for example, you look at cultures where arranged marriage is the norm, that isn’t even the couple’s job, it’s the families’.

    In western culture the romantic ideal makes us believe that love is necessary. It definitely helps. But two people can love each other before sex. Sex will strengthen that love, but sex will not create love (though it may create the illusion of love).

    Relationships are complex. People are complex. If you’ve already had multiple partners, sleeping with someone before marriage probably is a necessity for you; I won’t argue with that. What I am arguing is that for someone who has consciously made the decision to wait (and therefore has no previous experience to compare to), sex before marriage is not necessary, and therefore someone who makes such a decision isn’t missing anything vital (to them) and is not foolhardy to place other concerns over something as meaningless (to them) as “sexual compatibility.”


    To all you virgins: thanks for nothin’


    This chicks beauty mark is fake. You’ll notice it’s gone when she’s an old maid. If she was being lying about that, what else was she hiding? Maybe she wasn’t a virgin at all, and had herpes? Looks like Daniel dodged a bullet.
    Good on you Daniel, good on you.


    In the alternate reality, he knocks her up and he’s gone anyway.

    Whether you think it’s “Antiquated values” or no, the guy is the perfect caricature of a piece of shit, probably drawn by some douche who couldn’t charm his way into the water while standing on the shore.

    He’s also the reason why single guys have to choose between meeting a girl and getting a herpes sore or meeting a girl and getting a 3 year-old. Both, mind you, equally shitty options.

    Luke Magnifico

    Who says i9t’s the same girl? The decor’s all identical, and no woman is going to go 5 years without redecorating. That’s probably her mom, thinking to herself “Why does this couch smell like sex?”



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