Immigration problem


Just wanted the tards out there to STFU when they say “just immigrate legally”.

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    This isn’t telling me that we need radical mass-emancipation. This is telling me that we need an overhaul of the system, something that we need in dozens of other federal programs as well. I am not surprised.


    So this makes it ok to sneak into the back door?


    Ok? No. Logical? For many, yes.


    The best way to immigrate (and the way I myself entered America) is to stow away in someones nutsack

    Tiggle Bitties

    fuck this shit. people do this all the time, including myself. so lazy people can just show their lazy asses out the door because it’s totally possible. it is possible, and fuck the tards who say it’s impossible to immigrate legally. just because you’re lazy doesn’t mean the law should bend to your will. fucktards.

    i’m not saying it wasn’t a piece of shit process… but it definitely is better than just showing people in, especially because we’re becoming more of a nanny state than ever before. the system has a lot of give too, cuz there’s so much fuckin paperwork if you’re consistent and persistent enough they’ll let you stay eventually. jeez

    fracked again

    I worked on my parent’s farm through college. Nobody worked harder than the illegal day laborers. Those guys were anything but lazy, and if it was a job that paid by how many X you did, nobody got paid more.

    There just isn’t any way for them to get into the US, and for people who can’t do anything but unskilled farm jobs that don’t pay for shit, the only way to get in is illegally.

    The only way to stop illegal immigration is to make the US shittier than Mexico.


    “The only way to stop illegal immigration is to make the US shittier than Mexico.”

    Uh, they are working on it as we speak.


    if it’s too fucking hard to get into the US, go to Canada. everybody tells us it’s better there anyway.


    Lies, they have just as many problems as America does.


    mikester…STFU. Millions of people have immigrated here legally and went through the process. If you want it bad enough, you will follow the rules and do it. Just because sneaking in is easier, it doesn’t make it right. I’m tired of illegal aliens and illegal alien huggers using excuses and lame justifications. No one, legal or illegal should be exempt from a country’s laws.


    Are you tired of illegal aliens and illegal alien huggers stealing your jobs?

    fracked again

    Did you not bother following the flowchart? Some people just can’t get in legally.


    Is a little story for those who are dumb enough to think that the legal way works.


    So what do we tell the tards out there to STFU when they say “just immigrate illegally”?

    Or better yet, marry yourself into a green card


    So you can wait seven or sixteen or however may years and get in legally or spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder waiting for the guys in the INS van to show up and walk you off…

    If it were me I think I’d put in the time necessary to do it right.


    No, you wouldn’t, because it wouldn’t happen in 7 or 16 years. It would happen in NEVER.


    thanks for the post. immigration in the UK is very similar to this. I am on the verge of losing my partner of 3 years because a) we dont have joint receipts that prove we lived together for 2 years b) she has only been working for 5 months (not 6) c) her occupation is not on shortage list (balerinas, sheep shearers, hypnotists etc lol).


    saying this, lets not forget that poor country’s shit will never be sorted if the strong and able just piss over to where its comfortable. If people are stuck in their shitty countries THEY WILL FIX THEM


    I want to escape my country, and I’m an American.

    It’s almost not even worth immigrating to.

    Anyone seen my “sliders”, portal device?

    In this world, America is a corporate fascist police state, and there’s no jobs!


    Never mind, Found it!

    Tiggle Bitties

    both my parents are legal UK citizens and they come from fucking asia.


    So people that commit crimes and cannot get in legally should be ok to come to america.

    So people who don’t know our language, or never have plans too should enter our county to live.

    Same people should not pay taxes on working, not pay taxes opening a business, and should be allowed to send the money back home while draining our economy dry.

    If you don’t think illegal immigration isn’t a problem you need to start looking at the big picture and quit saying “oh he only wants to escape his country” because its making ours more like theirs.


    32659, you have no voice in this website.
    fucking spammer scum.


    “So people who don’t know our language, or never have plans too should enter our county to live.”

    Ah sweet irony. I think you meant, “or don’t have plans to ever learn it should enter our county(you’re only worried about your county? you know America isn’t a county but a country right?) to live.”

    English is a lovely language, don’t just sweet talk her but know her well, if that’s what you expect from those darn criminal immigrants.

    Ill illelegaly immigrat into your pants any day.


    Anybody that’s had to deal with H1B programmers, or with stupid fucking Mexicans knows how fucked we are.

    This needs to happen again:

    There are currently 14.6 million unemployed people in the US, and that doesn’t include under-employed and people that have given up and can’t find jobs and are just doing whatever they can).. Most estimates show that there are 12.5 million illegal immigrants in the US. Holle-shit, Batman.. Assuming that even 65 percent of those illegal immigrants have jobs, I bet I can make the unemployment rate go down..

    You know, like Arizona did..


    Nice notion of economics, except if every immigrant, even illegal, left, Social Security would go to the crapper faster than a communist could destroy a country.

    Believe it or not, illegal immigrants pay those things called “sale taxes” and “gas taxes”, and if they’re living like slave labor in places, they don’t bulk your precious health care system since their slave drivers just leave them to die.

    If they DO have a home of their own, the home is rented, and the landowner pays home taxes.

    Sure, they don’t pay income tax, but if they did, they’d be in the “really poor holy crap” bracket, and basically get a full refund either way, AND get social benefits for poor people. Holy crap Illegal immigrants are profitable. O NOES!

    I’m still going through the process of immigration LEGALLY in this country. I’ve been here for 6 years, and I know English better than half the people living here, I’m skilled labor, AND a partner in a company, and I STILL can’t get past the bulked up bureaucracy to get a green card (I won’t get a citizenship, seeing as I have 3 others already, I’d probably have to renounce once, and that’d be pretty crappy).


    Actually, they pay into income tax (AKA FICA), but never get their refund, so they are the IRS’s favorite workers.


    Everyones a fucking immigrant here. Lagal/ Illegal, whateves. The only real locals are the fucking Native Americans. If you think otherwise, fuck you, your wrong.


    Why is this even a problem? I hate to sound white, middle-age and racist (read: republican) by why are we acting like these people NEED to be here and thus we need to fix the way to get in?

    OH NOES! the old/single, unskilled, uneducated immigrant cant get in legally? lets stop what important things we’re doing and moan about it.


    Perhaps they ‘need’ to be here in order to survive? Perhaps they are so selfish because they’d like to be around to see their next birthday. I know it’s not popular opinion, but the mention of life as a right in the declaration of independence was preceded be a mention that it was a right held by all mankind, not just people that are US citizens.

    Oh, but I shouldn’t worry, it’s also just followed with the right of the people to alter or abolish the government, so they can just fix where they’re from. How many Iraqi’s that wanted to fix where they were from aren’t around to see their next birthday either?

    Well, then they may have their rights to life, and be too ‘lazy’ to change their original country, but why should we let em in here? Send em somewhere else. That would work right? After all, there’s always someone else who can clean up a mess. Besides, it’s not like our country had anything to do with the issues they’re fleeing.


    In order to survive? Yeah screw fixing your own country.


    Because our economy is predicated on them being here, but we continue to try to make them the only perpetrator in their illegal activity to ever have to suffer any consequences? Because the large corporations of the world and the “middle-aged racist” republicans who buy their iceberg lettuce for 99 cents instead of $2.99 never acknowledge their culpability in this crime but expect the illegal immigrant to do so? Perhaps because the party of “personal responsibility” is seen as massive hypocrites by pretty much the entire rest of the world because of this issue?

    Insanely Rational

    Typical liberal BS, and as all liberal BS it’s nothing more than a rationalization of robbery. According to Liberal Logic ™, since it’s very difficult (in fact, impossible for me) to legally obtain a Gold Visa card, it should be OK for me to use illegal means (a.k.a. robbery) to obtain one. After all, if the law makes something difficult, let alone impossible, then it’s perfectly OK to violate that law, after all, your own personal desires are more important than anything else in the world. Certainly more important than other people’s rights.


    lol@ad hominem


    That you have the word “rational” in your screen name is intensely funny.


    It took me 10 years (1997~2007) to became a lawful US citizen. And it’s worthy every penny or resource and every second of my life for it.

    What was the point of this cartoon? That we want those none skilled, no relationship human trashes in this country? Why?

    If you think US citizenship is not worth of 10 years of your life and resource, go somewhere else.


    my step father came here and did just as you did. he is an engineer and a damn good one. he worked hard and took some lumps and paid his dues. today he is a successful citizen.

    you know who he respects? the guy who mows our lawn. because that guy works for a living. he doesn’t accept handouts and he is sacrificing his life to make his sons life a better one.

    my dad recognizes that he had advantages growing up that a great many did not. he believes that America can be a land of opportunity for EVERYONE.

    in my book that makes him a real American. more than the fucking bigots and hate mongers and the greedy fucking conservative crybabies i hear every day. every single god damned day, whining about how they have to “suffer” to support some immigrant.


    ‘America! Love it they way I want you to or go somewhere else!’

    No wonder people like you are considered jokes.


    How many of you fuckers would be willing to become a martyr to some fucking drug cartel and have your head found in the bottom of a silver mine like the 50 local cops? You’d be looking up to Canada like motherfuckers too. “Oh, I was going to jump the border, find a shit job at a restaurant and not have to worry about being murdered in my sleep in a gang war, but THAT’S ILLEGAL, so I guess I’ll just sit here and wait to die! No, it’s cool really, maybe we can be heads-in-a-duffelbag-buddies, ha ha! Can’t wait! XOXOX”

    It’s not necessarily “right” that folks are coming here, the same as stealing bread when you’re starving isn’t “right”, but there are circumstances happening that make it a reality whether *we* like it or not. Hispanic folks want to live their loves, have families, work and be happy same as anybody else in this world, same as you or me. Down there it’s government corruption from a local to a national level, cartels, street gangs, drugs, brutal violence, no jobs, no education, no social safety nets, no workplace or worker protections. What’s needed is a fucking hero, and there isn’t one, so what’s the average person gonna do? You can’t force people into that. The Mexican government doesn’t seem to give two shits about what’s going on. The US government is in plain denial abou tall sorts of bullshit about it and is frozen by politics over the whole thing. What to do?

    Hopping the fucking border suddenly doesn’t sound so bad, does it?

    There is a big fucking problem, and telling people to just “stay the fuck out” is barbaric, particularly when you look the other way when you buy your lettuce for 50 cents a pound because Jose was willing to come up here to pick it for like a fucking nickel a bushel, for all of the reasons outlined above. What *we* as America have is the power to come to a solution that makes everybody happy – we have a source of cheap labor and tax dollars funding our economy from the bottom up, immigrants have a way to make a better life.

    Fuck all you racist dickbags who just hate on non-white people because you think you’re somehow *better* than them. We’re all people, motherfuckers. Take your “I got mine jack” and shove it up your ass. You know who’s gonna be first against the wall? you motherfuckers, that’s right, riding high on on your money and taking for granted everything around you. The world is a dark motherfucking place at the barest level and that darkness is out there waiting to consume everyone if we don’t keep the fucking light of humanity lit. So fucking be human and light it, you assholes.




    woo i internet raged


    conservative fucking bigots, cry me a god damned river about your rights. most white americans’ ancestors came here either as piss poor immigrants and/or raped and murdered the indigenous peoples, and stole the land.

    you keep talking about how “your” america is being taken away. well, how do you like them apples?

    let me repeat something i heard all together too much during that dumb ass bush’s presidency: LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT.

    shut up, or go away. i am sick to death of you cry baby conservatives. you are spoiled brats with an over developed sense of entitlement. you work against your own best interests and if that isn’t proof of insanity or mental disability, i don’t know what is. you shouldn’t be able to vote.

    payback is a bitch ain’t it?


    So how about those of us who know that “the jobs Americans won’t do” are jobs that Americans legally can’t do? Illegal immigrants are little better than slaves – they have no guarantee of any wages, let alone fair wages, they have no legal recourse, no guarantee of fair or safe working conditions. Yes, the fact that they’re willing to put up with these conditions suggests that Mexico is far worse (they have never seemed to get that whole revolution thing down, since every one they have makes things worse). But it still doesn’t make it right, or make it not a terrible human rights violation. We do need to overhaul immigration, but they are making it much harder for the people who want to immigrate legally. Maybe we can work on ways to make Mexico less of a shithole, but in the end, isn’t that what the entire world has been screaming at Americans about? If we began to meddle in Mexican politics, even as basic as ‘Hey, you all really need clean water, so we’re going to send some engineers down to design pipes’, we’ll be accused of invading.


    If our produce was picked by white Americans who took comp every time they hurt their back working, we would all starve to death. We wouldn’t be able to afford whatever produce made it out of the field.

    My wife worked in immigration law for years. I can tell you plenty of horror stories. Like tear-jerking, shoulda’ been on 48Hours stories.

    Five year waiting lists to get your next piece of paper stamped before you go back into the queue. Men being sent back home where a gang of soldiers murdered their families because we don’t offer asylum from that particular nation. Men sent back home to prison because they didn’t lie to the judge when he asked if they smoked pot. Except prison in their country doesn’t feed or clothe you, your family comes and does that, and your family is all dead from gang violence.

    I heard at least one crazy story like this a week. The success stories, where people actually made it through the system, usually took years to pan out.


    And that has to do with our lawsuit happy nation and our ridiculous school system artificially inflating our children’s egos. That still doesn’t excuse keeping people in virtual slavery, which is what we do to illegal immigrants… and unskilled legal immigrants for that matter.

    You’ll also notice that I said that we do need to reform our immigration laws. I know about immigration horror stories – I have three adopted brothers who were Vietnamese refugees. But what’s the solution? Let people come here to be abused, or force them to go home to be abused? Take over their countries, ensure basic human rights, and then leave? You’re telling me that our immigration laws are fucked up, which is true, so how do you propose we fix it? Obviously throwing our borders open isn’t working. It isn’t making people safer or people’s lives better. So rather than focusing on the horrors of legal immigration, let’s find out what we can do to make it better.


    In a nutshell, if you want something and it is too hard to obtain it legally (e.g. too expensive, takes too long) then it is okay to break the law and obtain it illegally? Is that the basic gist? I’ll keep that in mind the next time I’m out at the stores and some bauble captures my eye.


    What do you gain from stealing some bauble.
    A: Some bauble.

    What does someone gain from stealing themselves into a country that is not a shithole.
    A: A chance at life.

    Do you have to like, accept or support it? No. Does it make sense to someone who sees no other way out? You bet.


    Your argument appears to be premised upon the idea that it is okay to break the law provided that the offender has subjective intent of sufficient moral value.

    “What do you gain from stealing some bauble.
    A: Some bauble.”

    Not neccessarily. Perhaps I wanted to steal the bauble in order to feed myself, pay a medical bill or pay off my mortgage. All those purposes appear to be worthwhile – sustenance, medical treatment, housing. Therefore, I should be allowed to steal provided I have sufficient moral intent.


    Now don’t be strawmaning me, you’re the one who compared it to buying bauble. You could have said food, water or shelter instead of bauble but then you couldn’t have ridiculed all those crazy people who think it’s worth breaking the law. 20% of the population on our planet consumes 80% of all the resources, not because we can’t live a decent life with less and certainly not because we did anything to deserve being born in a rich country. It happens by chance, and personally I’m not going to blame someone for wanting to break a man made law so he can have a chance at a better life. I’m not impressed by your man made laws, the natural needs of a human being can’t adjust to words on a piece of paper. If anything it would be inhuman of someone to not attempt everything in their power to survive.


    It means that if people are desperate enough, you can’t stop them and it’s useless to make it more and more criminal. There are so many examples of this that I fond it hard to believe that anyone still follows such logic. Nothing we’ve done has slowed it down, in fact, it’s getting worse. We have brains; we should use them now and then.


    Imagine this: You go to to buy a movie or a song. You are told that it is all sold out. But, you can try again on this same day next year, after paying a lawyer a few thousand dollars.

    You would drive directly home and download a pirated copy from the internet within minutes, and wouldn’t think twice.

    Now imagine that instead of media, we’re talking about families, jobs and food.

    Complaining about people who steal bread to live while you’re downloading Iron Man 2 off of a Chinese movie site is a little silly.

    There’s plenty of good arguments against illegal immigration. Taking moral high ground over people trying to merely survive is probably your worst choice.


    But in your example, if you downloaded the movie and were caught you be punished accordingly. You knew the risks and accepted them. You then really can’t complain when faced with arrest and fines as a result of your criminal action that you shouldn’t be punished.

    I have nothing against immigration. I have nothing against changing immigration laws. But until the laws are changed you kind of have to obey the laws. Sorry.


    My point here is this.

    If you really want to fix the problem… I mean really fix it instead of looking hip by standing around saying “Dey turk ar jerbs!”, we need to do this: Take every brain cell used to think of ways to spend money on “fighting” illegal immigration, and use that brain power to reform the system instead. It’s the ONLY solution. The ONLY one.


    the best way to win the illegal immigration argument is to just run around calling everyone a racist and completely ignore the reality of the situation.

    btw. Mexico was built on immigration too. and yet they have even more stringent laws than we do. which is amusing since they were so up in arms about the Arizona law, which isn’t at all different from the laws on the books in Mexico.


    Right. But the Mexicans are trying to leave Mexico, because it sucks. I don’t think we should aspire to be more like Mexico, or call people hypocrites because they don’t like a law in our country that’s similar to one in a place that they are fleeing.

    I don’t think that pointing out some people as racists is the same thing as ignoring the reality of the situation. The reality is that no matter how much money, guns or fences you throw at the problem, people will still immigrate here (see The War On Drugs for examples). We need to fix they system, not the border.


    But the illegal immigrants are also being hypocritical. If they are fleeing a country that is lawless or overrun by criminal elements … then how can they reasonably ask us not to enforce our own laws against them for their criminal actions? If we didn’t enforce our laws then we’d be no better than the country they just fled from.


    Because the people they are running from are merciless. We’re not…mostly.


    I was simply pointing out that people try to narrow the illegal immigration issue down to one thing: Mexicans vs. White People.

    It’s racist.

    My second point was that every other nation in the world has immigration laws. Ours aren’t so bad compared.

    Me personally, I won’t support any immigration reform that is culturally biased in favor of Latin American countries. Example: LA mandated all public services be bilingual, English and Spanish. While Hispanics may be the largest minority group in the United States, Asians are the largest minority group in Los Angeles. By having the cultural bias for Hispanics, you’ve ignored the largest minority group. You have a “minority” group that doesn’t have to bother to learn english and can speak spanish exclusively.

    Which, I personally think is fucked up. Especially, since my family learned English and stopped speaking Norwegian.


    Nonetheless we are talking about Mexicans and we need to find a way to deal w/ their problem which has become our problem. Picking them up and throwing them in jail for several months and finally throwing them back over the border to start all over again is lunacy. It’s not fucking working; not for them and not for us. The laws we have in place simply don’t address the problem and the new harsher laws are even worse. This is not that hard of a concept to get. You can fight the law of gravity all you want by screaming at it, not gonna help you get into space.


    Because a hypocritical desire to enforce our laws against them, but not anyone else who benefits from their illegal presence here, is more hypocritical of us than of them.

    If you’re part of the “what part of ‘illegal’ don’t you understand?” crowd, be prepared to actually suffer the consequences for once in your massive entitlement-assuming lives. That means tripling your grocery bills, doubling most other labor. Get used to it. Once we can’t push all the consequences of our nation’s cozy relationship with illegal labor onto said workers, we’ll be in for a deluge of cost expansions that will finally show the average American how much their lifestyle is intertwined with the assumption of illegal immigrant labor.


    Breaking a law, is breaking a law, period. It doesn’t matter WHY you broke the law. C’mon. You can’t pick and choose which laws you want to enforce.

    BTW, I looked into moving to Canada and according to their website, I don’t have any skills that they desire…so should I just sneak in because I want a better life? According to most of you, it would be okay for me to do that.

    In closing, to any of you that DO NOT live in America and most importantly, in a border state, you can STFU.


    not every law is just. in this country laws, laws that don’t work, are meant to be changed. justice is supposed to be tempered by mercy.

    you know, i will wager that IF you sneaked into Canada for a better life, they would have the compassion to at least help you attain that better life.

    you may use the law to justify your own agenda, but it boils down to basic human decency and simple compassion. you may have stone for a heart and no soul, but i don’t. i can’t wash my hands of the matter and hide behind the unjust laws.

    one day, people like you will be in a position where they need some help. when that day happens i want you to think long and hard about the kind of things you spouted off about helping others; about your greed and selfishness.

    you make me ashamed to be an American. and a Texan. you and everyone like you.


    Wonderful, you made a good point and said exactly what I meant to say about how people regard the law but wasn’t sure how to articulate it. This is why I love Texans.

    so does that mean you will let me make love to you? 😀

    If I ever do it’s only because you asked in such a sweet manner.




    I do not have an “agenda”. I would like for this country’s immigration laws to be respected and enforced. Why is it okay for other countries to enforce their harsher immigration laws but not okay for the U.S.?

    As for “people like me”, you have no clue as to who I am or what I do. I’ve never been described as greedy or selfish and actually enjoy helping people. But, breaking laws and stealing identities is not something that I condone or excuse.

    Maybe you will understand “people like me” when illegal immigration has a DIRECT effect on you or someone in your family. When someone close to you is MURDERED by an illegal alien, (yes, by someone who was here for a “better life”) and this illegal just slinks back across the border without facing justice, I bet your tune will change.

    So until you’re willing to look at the negative effects of illegal immigration, get off your Mother Teresa high horse and quit assuming that people that are against illegal immigration are heartless and un-American.


    by that logic, if some countries ripped out people’s tongues for dissent, so should we.

    not every person who comes here is a criminal and the last time i was a victim of identity theft, it was committed by a citizen.

    not every person who comes to this country is a murderous letch looking to rape and steal. (maybe you are thinking about the people who came here from England and Europe centuries ago?) to suggest that it has to be an immigrant who murders my family says to me that you are a victim of conservative spin doctoring pundit brainwashing.

    so why not take off your blinders and see the bigger picture instead of living in bigotry and cowardice, cloaked in a flag.


    Noooo, I never said we had to mimic other countries laws. We should be allowed to enforce our own, as they enforce theirs.

    For the record, I’m not a conservative, nor am I a liberal.

    We will have to agree to disagree, obviously. It’s shameful that you cannot debate an issue without attacking one’s character, which happens to be a trait of a liberal.

    I do not see how illegal immigrants benefit this country. I can’t think of ONE positive factor to it. So call me whatever you want, make more character assumptions but know that the majority of Americans are against illegal immigration.


    if it quacks like a bigot…

    i am not assuming anything, you are laying it all out for me with your own words. so, if the conservative rope fits, please hang yourself with it.

    the passive-aggressive wounded bird tactics are the hallmark of a defeated conservative.

    ONE positive factor? people working hard, paying taxes, doing work you would balk at, giving up everything so their kids have a chance a better future. so those kids can grow up and become productive members of our society. that seems pretty positive to me. when ever you hear a white politician talk about his parent or grandparents this way, hes fawned over as a man of the people.

    that changes if his skin tone gets a little bit browner.

    look inside and just be honest with yourself for once in your life. you are on your side this argument because of hate, fear, and weakness, not in anyone else but within yourself. you want more and more, and you won’t share anything with anyone, especially not some “wetback” or “nigger” or “gook”. just be honest. just once.


    Again, I’m not conservative, nor am I hateful, fearful, I’m FAR from weak and believe it or not, I’m NOT “white”. I’m actually one of the derogatory words you used. Thanks for that.

    You insist on insulting me because I want laws enforced. Which is fine, your opinions are yours.

    These jobs that illegal immigrants do, WERE DONE BEFORE…it’s not as if no one had been doing them until they came. So save your “berry picking, fast food working, car washing, house cleaning” song and dance for someone else. This country did just fine before the influx of illegal immigrants.


    No. No, it didn’t. We needed immigrants. We had land and no one to work it. They were giving it away, FFS. What do you think happened during the Dark Ages? There wasn’t enough people. There was no economy, not enough people to work enough land to feed what little population was left.


    Not in recent times. We now have PLENTY of people and not enough work. But thanks for taking it back to the Dark Ages.


    Look again.


    i am one (or more) of those derogatory terms too. small world, huh? quit being so shocked and pretending you’re hurt. but, i suppose, in the 21st century with so many racial barriers coming down, ultimately its all code for “poor”.

    its easy to make a person illegal when you dehumanize them. when you eliminate the humanity from yourself and them. when you can simply codify who must suffer and who must be swept away. when you have a law that states that some people aren’t entitled to opportunity.

    this is the law you want to uphold? you imagine that this law protects you from some imaginary threat. that isn’t fear? that isn’t willful ignorance?

    in point of fact: those jobs were done by immigrants before. they were simply kidnapped into slavery to do them. oh, and lets not forget the Irish diaspora and how they were fed to the meat-grinder of our “rich man’s war” between the states. they were given the blue uniform and sent to kill southern citizens and the indigenous peoples to the west.

    you are wrong. you are wrong for supporting evil laws. Edmund Burke said all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. well, you are not passively standing by, no. you are standing up. for evil.


    If you believe what you say, then you’re not upset w/ those that want to change the system. You should be upset w/ those that claim to want what you want, but prefer to hate the illegal immigrants themselves, rather than the system.


    The hell you can’t decide which laws you’re going to honor. You ever speed? Drink underage? Smoke a joint? Any drug? Even the legal ones for the wrong purpose? Tear off the mattress tag?


    I never said anything about honoring laws…the word I used was enforce. And yes, I have broken the law before, and when I was called on it, I faced the consequences. I didn’t try to justify why I did it or make any excuses. I broke the law, and paid the price.


    …and the ones you didn’t get caught for? Have you accepted the consequences of those?


    Or, instead of STFU, people can come up with rational arguments that make you look like an idiot. As to. “Breaking a law, is breaking a law, period.”–if your brain is that limited, than I leave you to the all the happiness you can find amongst the morons who find this impressive. Y’see, the rest of us are capable of complex thought. We understand that there are REASONS why people do or don’t choose to break laws, and that these are worth analyzing and discussing.

    I’m serious. Do you not realize that you make your side of the argument look like a ridiculous joke? Do you want to be compared to the hillbilly characters on the Simpsons? Are you so lazy not to actually put effort into your argument that you are okay with that? You must have SOME point, but you’re not willing to put forth any effort to defend it? Why?


    Regarding my statement, I kept it simple for everyone here that seems to think that breaking a law is okay IF there is a reason for doing so. Who decides when it’s okay to break a law? Are laws now flexible depending on the motive? Should I rob a bank because I need groceries and don’t qualify for government aid? I mean, I’m not harming anyone, I just need food for survival. Would this act be excused? According to most of you here, that should be an excusable offense, because I needed food for survival and I don’t have the resources to buy groceries.


    You keep missing the point. It’s not about what you can do if desperate; it’s about what several million would do if they’re desperate. Like it or not, it matters.


    I guess my argument is this … laws are usually written (or an attempt is made to write them) in a fashion in which their violation can be determined via observation of objective factors. For example, if you take something that does not belong to you … that is stealing.

    But you are arguing that certain criminal activities (e.g. violating immigration laws) is acceptable based upon the subjective intent (e.g. wanting a better life) of the violator, even though they are breaking the law. Therefore, I assume based upon your logic that is okay for people to break other laws if they believe that they have sufficient or acceptable motivation to break the law.

    So, if a drug dealer argues that he needs to sell heroin to pay the rent, or I steal something to pay some medical bills, that’s cool?

    Not saying that the immigration laws do not need to be fixed. They do. Not saying I have a beef against immigrants. I don’t. BTW, my parents immigrated here … legally. Just don’t like the argument that immigrating is so hard that it’s okay to break the law and then violators bitch about being arrested for the violation.


    None of this has anything to do with what I said. A drug dealer is directly harming others while an illegal immigrant could be helping others if he does it right. My point was that the wish to live in a better place is rational and human, regardless of what some piece of paper says.


    If it was OK, we wouldn’t be asking to reform the system.

    In the meantime, you can’t expect people to choose obeying a law of a foreign country over not starving to death.


    Not to sound like a dick… But maybe we just dont want any more immigrants here? We did it for a couple hundred years now, we’ve got enough people sucking off our crappy assistance programs that really dont need to, and are just using the system to do virtually nothing and get by pretty damn well by using our faulty system. I know of several people that are doing just that, because they know how to abuse the system.

    If we’re making it hard to get in, its cause we dont want you here. There’s a god damn fence. A fence is to keep people OUT. If someone next door to you has a fence with a sign that says “Trespassers will be sent away”, and you hop the fence, should you be sent away, or be allowed to live at their place and eat their food because you didnt like your life outside their fence?

    However, sometimes you have to do what you have to do. If it really does suck that bad on that side of the fence, and you have to jump it to live, then you subject yourself to being put right the hell back if you’re caught. You cant really whine about that.


    Except that we do! We REALLY REALLY do want immigrants here! We love them! We want them toiling for 50 cents an hour picking produce so that our iceberg lettuce costs $0.99 instead of $2.99 per head. We just want to be hypocrites and whenever the authorities actually catch wind that the status quo is occurring and illegal immigrants are picking our produce and busing our dishes, that all the penalties get dumped on the immigrants, and not on the grocery stores, restaurants, and citizens who also benefit from this cozy relationship.


    We have a fence. A fence that covers 600 miles of a 2000 mile border.

    Tiggle Bitties

    okay okay okay…

    I made three points, all of which are valid but were merged together by people too blind to see that I was making four points.

    FIRST: the immigration process is possible. Not easy. Not fun. but POSSIBLE. I have good friends who are immigrants whose parents were hard labor. They followed all the legal channels, but doggone it they made it. It is fucking difficult and makes you want to kill someone, but it is still an option. NOT EVERYONE CAN MAKE IT SURE but has everyone tried? Sure some people are hard labor and work and all that but the process is so fucking difficult it requires a certain perseverance that few have. Mental discipline. Patience. I don’t know but whatever the fuck it is those people were sworn citizens the same day as I was and I am proud to have known them.

    SECOND: LAWS exist for a reason. It’s my firm belief that we should try and follow them where possible and where they do fundamental damage to our daily lives. Look at it this way: the national parks forbid tourists from removing things (in general) from the parks because if everyone did it the parks would get fucked over. Sure, immigrants have a much better personal reason for wanting to leave, but if the US opened the floodgates, it would become a serious problem because we don’t have the facilities to deal with them. Space, hospitals, law enforcement, you name it but people of every stripe need those facilities in order to preserve a stable society. Not all people are good; some immigrants come in with a purpose that is patently wrong like arms distribution, drugs, and human exploitation. We have enough trouble dealing with our problems as is some people in the US don’t think an influx of people would help the situation. As it stands, immigration is so difficult that many native citizens would never pass its gauntlet.

    THIRD: I FUCKING HATE THE SYSTEM. It is messed up beyond belief. Far from any human perspective, the screening system is so convoluted and evil that if you mess up one step of the way, fill out a document too few, or ANYTHING you go back to square one. Screening people is a problem, and as far as a solution goes we are nowhere nearer to a viable one. For the US it’s either “open the floodgates” or “build a fucking dam” : there is no intermediate step.

    FOURTH: Some illegal immigrants contribute. Some don’t. Some steal. WE have NO FUCKING IDEA who is doing what because they’re undocumented. Paperwork gets jammed in the fucking machine. Numbers don’t add up. There are definitely more than a few cases where hospitals have had to close (their emergency wards or sometimes the whole damn thing) because they did not receive funding proportional to the number of patients they were treating. I know that our vegetables are picked by people who work bloody hard but also that the food industry (particularly corn) is heavily subsidized and connected to the government. Simply blaming one portion of our population that does not even exist on paper does not solve our problems. Unemployment? Some citizens don’t want the jobs illegals are filling. Some people argue that undocumented workers keep our country going, but there is no way to know. Fuck all, this thread is so narrowminded that I hope that none of you are actually in charge of policy. On the other hand, the people who are are no better. fuck arizona dude. I just don’t know, because the more I see, the more trouble i have putting my finger on what exactly is the problem.

    Perspective, anyone?


    Here is a perspective.
    I am “actually in charge of policy.”
    I work in Public Health and am in charge of actual “public health policy.”

    I am very glad that the people who work in the spheres of public health, immigration law, corporate law, and all other realms of compliance are not wondering around saying, “the immigration process is possible. Not easy. Not fun. but POSSIBLE.”[with literally NO subtext added about how likely it is that this can be accomplished]. Also, I am glad that they don’t say, “THIRD: I FUCKING HATE THE SYSTEM.” as a way to excuse the lack of actual thought put into their arguments when they try to denigrate anyone not walking in lockstep to the system as we know it.

    Finally, I am glad that you mentioned that some illegal immigrants contribute and that some don’t. This proves that you are more than happy to utilize evidence that literally has no bearing on the argument you cited. Based on the logic you used, the actual contribution an illegal immigrant contributes to the society he works in has literally no merit. All that matters is whether his contribution to the social order and social norm technically qualify under the guidelines of “legal.” Yet you couch your arguments about whether these individuals should be allowed into a society based on their worth to said society. Are you a utilitarian or are you a deontologist? From where I stand, you seem a hypocrite.

    Tiggle Bitties

    Hey, having passed through 3 country’s immigration gauntlets i can say that having lived in the US, the immigration law was the most convoluted. Hong Kong, all I need to do is live there for 7 fuckin years. England, I lived there for 10 years.

    I don’t think i need to provide subtext or proof. do you want to see my passports, for fuck’s sake?

    the thing is, i don’t KNOW what i should think. the people who guide policy don’t seem to, either.


    How many immigration petitions are accepted every year? How many immigrants desperately want to come here? That difference makes it obvious to Mexicans that it is, in fact, impossible. Stay in Mexico and die, go to America illegally and have a chance. That’s not a choice; it’s survival.

    Tiggle Bitties

    you’re generalizing. for everyone, is that the case?


    How does it matter? If you break it down for Mexicans only, the percentages only get worse.

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