Judaism vs Zionism

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Why do American tax payers have to finance a war against innocent people.
From nkuk.org


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    Technically it is not a war.


    I don’t belong to either of those groups. Sweet!
    At this point I am convinces the government has giant machines that incinerate our tax dollars. Billions of dollars always seems to dissapear so easily.


    Plus the whole zionist movement is bullshit. I support israel but the whole “zionist conspiracy” things is a load of shit peddled by Neo-Nazis and paranoid muslims.




    Judaism, fuck yeah!

    Screw Israel, they’ve long since lost any right to being a state, there need to be regime change now.


    Also, none of what has been going on right now lately would have happened if Hamas wouldn’t have opened fire after israel opened the gaza strip. I mean here you had israel starting to co-operate and be a little nicer, and what do they do? They fucking shoot missiles into civillian homes. I’m not saying israel is innocent, israel has done their fair share of shitty things as well but they have not attacked unprovoked. remember those rubber bullets they were using against civillians? Yeah they had steel cores and were killing and paralyzing people)


    Puulaahi: Simultaneously- These giant printing machines print more money for tax payers to spend…like 750 billion + more.
    thelotuseater725: Hitler printed money to buy weapons from britts to use on britts.


    thelotuseater725: Neo-Nazis, paranoid Muslims, Alex Jones and apparently deeply religious orthodox Jews.

    I know most of you don’t agree with me. And I know it’s not all black and white. But I thought I’d post these and show how there are people, you’d never expect, who are against Israel.



    Well i’m not too surprised myself, there are a few people at my synagogue who don’t like Israel. Mostly because of the way it was formed. And quite frankly i do agree with these people you posted ( albeit to a certain extent)


    According to the stupid ass Military Channel, Isreal is leading the way in weopons technology. So they can take care of themselves. Not to mention the arms they likely buy from the ol US of A. In Humas defense, they seem to be the only ones fighting to defend the Palestinians. Everyone to blame.

    TrAyVon'S GhOSt, nuCca

    I want to open a strip club called The Gaza Strip.

    Plus the way it goes be: Israel was picked as the Jewish holy land and the hardcore dradle spinners want them out because the real messiah won’t come if they’re in the wrong place or some such shit.

    Crazy stupid pricks. America should take the whole region over and make each of them go sit in the corner.


    Yeah we can build a giant military base there and have our aircraft fly figure eights over said Muslim dictatoships for fun. Plus build tons of Mcdonalds around the said area to spread freedom fries.


    dieAntagonista: hnn.us/articles/751.html I think this article might interest you. It’sa brief history lesson on israel and covers things like american jews being opposed to israel and to a lesser extent zionism.


    Blah. They should have kept Palestine british. ‘though I fear that wouldn’t have changed anything, either – it would have been Arabs against Brits by now. Fuckin’ territorial demands. Haven’t we learnt what that Lebensraum bullshit leads to?


    Hail Hitler.


    thelotuseater725: And Hamas wouldn’t be firing rockets if Israel hadn’t herded them onto a reservation to live as slaves on meager handouts until they die out.


    Joint leadership
    No fucking walls
    And a split synagogue/mosque on the holyest of holy spot.
    Give each sides weopons to China to upset the whole world.


    The redistribution of land is bit of a problem though.


    thelotuseater725: That article is extremely interesting and I have to admit I didn’t know most of those things. Yeah I expected you to know about this actually, but not most people.

    But aside from all that, what do you think about what the Torah says, in regards to a Jewish nation? I mean following only some of their teachings, and completely ignoring others strikes me as absurd.


    dieAntagonista: “following only some of their teachings, and completely ignoring others strikes me as absurd.” Same goes for any religion.



    And the palestinian’s would be just fine if they had accepted the UN’s offer of becoming Israeli citizens. The jews and “palestinians”were living together just fine before the formation of israel.


    JamesTuskGeorge: In America we call them Mormans… didn’t work out though..


    Puulaahi: Yea don’t I know it. Like, Muslim suicide bombers, Christians who are for the death penalty etc. They pick and choose what they want to believe like from a buffet of power and oppression.

    Here’s a video from one of the fine men from Vlogbrothers, who solved the problem with Israel and Palestine in less than four minutes: www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Jk1kpKvfs


    In that “Sliders” show way back- the one where what IF Hitler had won the world- the show portrayed it dark and evil- but i beleive it would have been quite different- cuz Hitler would have killed all religions excpt his own… One world order. Hail Hitler.nobody knows: a wise pupil.


    thelotuseater725: “Citizens”, under an apartheid government. Yeah, that worked really well in South Africa. Curse those Palestinians for rejecting an offer to be second class humans in their own land.


    Most intelligent conversation I’ve seen here yet! kutgw


    I am a black jew.


    nobody knows: www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gRh5rd3Lss

    Conformity is SO COOL! I want to look like a jew too. One last time- Religion is AWSOME.


    dieAntagonista: honestly i don’t know what to think. The Torah is a very complex book seemingly filled with contradiction and redundancy. The whole point of the form of Judaism i align myself with is to weed out all the “bullshit” ( for lack of a better term) without being blasphemous to god. It’s fairly easy to do once you realize that though the torah may be inspired or the direct words of god it was penned by humans. Humans who are capable of cherry picking and “editing” the information that they see as appropriate. And then there is the question of god as a perfect omnipotent being, but that is a whole other spiel. But regretfully i have grown rusty on my torah over the years, largely because after my “atheist” phase i began looking for historical/secular justification for my holy land’s existence and stopped consulting the torah. I’m sorry if that doesn’t fully answer your question but my knowledge on the torah is spotty at best. However i can offer you this;

    As far as the whole israeli/palestinian conflict goes the torah does support the idea of a two state nation. Infact you can be jewish and be both Pro-Israel and Pro-Palestine ( which is the view i personally agree with). This article from Jewish Community Online Explains it best. www.thejc.com/articles/2008502857/torah-says-you-can-be-israel-and-palestine.

    TrAyVon'S GhOSt, nuCca

    Whoever blows me first gets the land.



    thelotuseater725: I think I love you. Are you petite and willing to have my children?


    mAgnUS BUTTfoorson:
    does shoting you count?


    thelotuseater725: Actually, I don’t think there are as many contradictions in the Torah as one would like to believe. The new Testament is sweet and everything, but not correct. They just took the things they liked and put them together as a more ‘subtle’ version of the Old Testament. As in, hey it’s not so bad if you get tattoos, piercings and you don’t have to stone your children, but homosexuality is still a sin because we said so.

    Though if you take a look at the Old Testament and Torah in original Hebrew and study it at least for 50 years, you know that all of the above is bullshit. These books were never meant to be interpreted literally in the first place. Aside from that, according to the original there is no hell, and god doesn’t punish anyone. Hell is described as a bad time on earth etc. And about the Jewish nation, it is very clear also, that Jews were never supposed to have their own country.

    As for the link, why yes, I agree absolutely. I don’t think that it’s what the Torah teaches, but what they propose is the only solution and I support that. If you watch the video I linked, the guy explains the same thing.

    We need to start a Bible/ Torah discussion thread in the forums.


    Here are a couple of quotes from wikipedia

    “Israel is not an apartheid state — rather the opposite, it is easily the most democratic and politically egalitarian state in the Middle East, in which Arabs Israelis enjoy far more freedom, better social services, etc. than in all the Arab states surrounding it. Indeed, Arab representatives in the Knesset, who continuously call for dismantling the Jewish state, support the Hezbollah, etc., enjoy more freedom than many Western democracies give their internal Oppositions. (The U.S. would prosecute and jail Congressmen calling for the overthrow of the U.S. Govt. or the demise of the U.S.) The best comparison would be the treatment of Japanese Americans by the US Govt … and the British Govt. [incarceration] of German émigrés in Britain WWII … Israel’s Arabs by and large identify with Israel’s enemies, the Palestinians. But Israel hasn’t jailed or curtailed their freedoms en masse (since 1966 [when Israel lifted its state of martial law]).

    “The difference between the current Israeli situation and apartheid South Africa is emphasized at a very human level: Jewish and Arab babies are born in the same delivery room, with the same facilities, attended by the same doctors and nurses, with the mothers recovering in adjoining beds in a ward. Two years ago I had major surgery in a Jerusalem hospital: the surgeon was Jewish, the anesthetist was Arab, the doctors and nurses who looked after me were Jews and Arabs. Jews and Arabs share meals in restaurants and travel on the same trains, buses and taxis, and visit each other’s homes. Could any of this possibly have happened under apartheid? Of course not.”




    I suggest you actually bother to research what you say.


    I suggest you don’t spout wikipedia as a credible site, or propaganda as reasearch, but I doubt you’ll stop.


    JamesTuskGeorge: Only one of the article is from Wikipedia. And anyone who claims Wikipedia articles aren’t credible is too lazy to look up the information that verifies if the article is true.



    Well it depends really, There is a lot of debate about whether or not israel should be a nation. I can’t provide any references so i take no offense if you do not believe me. But, from what i recall from a conversation from a rabbi oh so many years ago was that there wasn’t any solid biblical evidence for either the existence or non existence of israel. In other words the words are too vague to concretely say ” yes it says clearly that israel is to be an actual nation for the jews” Or to reversely say ” No it says that israel is to never be a nation.” Sorry for the vague answer but as i said before my current knowledge is spotty at best. Personally i believe that the whole point of the exodus from egypt was so the jews could establish a homeland of their own , hence creating israel. Any idea what specific verses make an argument against the formation of israel?


    dieAntagonista: Good advice- considering I’m the one who’s contributing “shamanistic ways with amanita muscaria invoked red and white Santa Claus” to wikipedia.


    Santa is a nazi,he gave shit.
    Shit FTW?
    What coal to fucking expensive?



    And i suggest you pull your head out of your ass and actually present ANY evidence. At least i can back myself up, and when i can’t i flat out say so. But hey i am sure your atheist/muslim/whatever the fuck you believe, is just as objectionable as any evidence i have. Fuck off, the adults are talking.


    The people of Palestine would be far better off if they accepted the offer of becoming Israeli citizens. However, how would you (as an American citizen) react if 6 million Russians/Africans/Arabs arrived overnight and set up camp somewhere between New York and Los Angeles? My guess is you wouldn’t be too happy.

    Israelis have a valid claim to (some of) the land, as do the Palestinians. However, the Palestinians have been chillin’ on the [Gaza] Strip for a long, long time and are understandably loathe to relinquish land they have lived on for millennia.

    WWII was horrific, and the stomach-turning atrocities committed by the Nazis swayed global opinion in favour of the Jewish population that hadn’t fallen victim to the brutality of Hitler’s regime. And rightly so.

    The problem as I see it is that Israel was established on land not unfamiliar with geopolitical conflict and given backing from many sources around the world. The combination of “stealing” land from Palestine, and doing so on the strength of a powerful international resolution could only serve to anger the people of Palestine. “Why us?” they must have asked.

    Using America once more as a hypothetical example; if a hundred million Native Americans, or “Red Indians” appeared out of the ether, with UN backing, and said “Guys, we’re gonna need some land,” how would you react? Your father’s father’s have been on that continent for a long long time…

    Although I try to stay neutral as I don’t know nearly enough about the history of the West Bank, the key point that turns me against Israel’s approach to this Never Ending Story, is their overwhelming clear advantage. Maybe it’s a British thing to root for the underdog, but Israel’s advantage over Palestine is unreal. Palestine don’t even have an army FFS whereas Israel has some high-tech shit and a very well trained defense force.

    Israel’s justification for the recent offensive is that Palestinian rockets have been whipping in to civilian areas of Israel. This is entirely true, but responding in kind, with more powerful weapons just stinks something rotten.

    I’m not about to say “why can’t you all just get along,” because that would be naive. The Irish were fighting against us [England] throughout my childhood and I couldn’t for the life of me understand why we should be so interested in ruling a nation that is so clearly averse to British rule. We had soldiers on their streets and they had their rebels on those same streets hurling Molotovs at us because we were on land they regarded as their own. We [Ireland and England] have all seen sense and come to a [fragile] agreement since then, but our conflict doesn’t go nearly as far back as all the troubles in the Middle East do.

    Going back to my opening paragraph, the people of Palestine would be far better off if they accepted the offer of becoming Israeli citizens. But why shouldn’t the people of Israel become Palestine citizens? It’s a matter of pride and religion, fought over a disputed land for thousands of years. Much like Ireland. The Jews deserve a home, and the Palestinians deserve to keep the land they have called their own for so long. I have no answers, just a funny picture of an anti-semite.

    Peace to one and all.


    dieAntagonista: The wikipedia quote comes from Benny Morris, a Jewish Zionist who thinks that Ben Gurion’s failing was in only achieving a partial eradication of Palestinians. He is not, by any means, a balanced and credible source.

    Second quote comes from a great man, but one who had first hand experience of life under apartheid in South Africa and for whom no other situation will ever be as tragic as he will only ever read of it, not experience it. If he were living in Gaza now he might well say it was as bad as SA 2 decades ago, but thankfully he now lives in the luxury he deserves.

    The third site is also not credible. A site with the sole purpose of supporting Israel is not going to give a balanced view of the conflict. I assume this is a joke on your part, because if you really think it is appropriate as a balanced source of information then there is little hope for you.


    thelotuseater725: Bring on the personal insults, I accept them as your intellectual surrender.


    V sI A assBumD”


    Guise, we really need to stop arguing over this. If you have family affected by this, my only advice is to get them somewhere where their life isn’t threatened. This doesn’t constitute surrender or anything like that. If they have the money to leave, GTFO immediately and start over. It’s not a sign of weakness, it’s a sign of intellect. Why live in a war zone when no-one’s forcing you to?


    flex: smart- but ur on mcs- and i wouldn’t mind if a bunch of russians/arabs/… wait …Africans? um.. missed that one didn’t you.


    Dude WTF I am russian arab whit a hint of black.


    so im fucking this guy in the ass, he reaches back and grabs my nutsack! i’m like,”this dudes the biggest fag i’ve ever met!”

    nobody knows: No SHIT? ME TOO! We’re BROTHERS!!!Eagle River?


    (and whomever’s posts I’ve skipped):

    While it makes sense to us to say “GFTO of the war zone” *because that would make sense*, it’s not an issue of sense but of pride, tradition, long-standing grudges and principles. I have a friend (hopefully have, not had…depending on where he is right now) who is Palestinian, with a wife and about 10 kids, and I asked him why he didn’t just move, or live peacefully with the Israelis. His answer was simply that Palestine is his home. I argued that “home is where you hang your hat,” used America as an example of all the people who moved away from home and made a new place their home, one free of the old torments and persecutions.

    His response was that I didn’t understand, and that you can’t just make a new home. Palestine is his home, and that’s that. If it means living in a war zone, so be it. Not logical at all, but there you have it.


    Holy shit.
    Theres no fucking way.
    You got fucking die.
    There can only be one.


    rattybad: That makes him a fucking moron. Nothing else.


    Well you see, if you look at it like that, anything from the Torah is too vague to even consider it a religion. Obviously there are different people who will interpret these things in different ways.

    As I understand it, the main problem with Israel is that it has an army. A religion to have an army based on their religion which teaches peace? That’s like saying Muslims bombing themselves in the name of their religion which says suicide is a sin.

    The site I linked answers all your questions. But here it is:

    What is the People of Israel?

    • The People of Israel have existed for thousands of years.
    •They have their own particular, essential nature.
    •The Torah is the source of their essential nature.
    •Without Torah and Faith there is no People of Israel.
    •Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the People of Israel.
    •The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine Service.
    •Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.

    What is Zionism?

    •Zionism is a relatively new thing.
    •It has only existed for a century.
    •Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the People of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character – a materialistic worldly nation.
    •Their misfortune is lack of what other nations possess, i.e. a state and army.
    •Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.
    •This is clearly spelled out in the circles of Zionist thought, and among the leaders of the Zionist State, that through changing the nature and character of the People of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel “their salvation” — a state and an army.

    flex: Why hello there. Are you sure you have the slightest clue what you’re talking about? Haven’t you heard of the people in Gaza who CANNOT leave?
    I have two aunts there who work for the United Nations. So they are pretty important as you can probably imagine. Since the existence of Israel they were NOT allowed to leave the country.
    Same goes for entering the country. It is almost impossible unless you are well known and rich. Thank you very much.

    TrAyVon'S GhOSt, nuCca

    nobody knows:

    Shoting me?

    Way to typo, typo.

    You typo like a typo with a severe case of typo A typo.

    This thread is long and interesting. But without an ending why persist?

    Somehow I think the whole situation could be fixed with titties. Nobody is mad looking at titties.


    mAgnUS BUTTfoorson:
    what about Tiki?
    He’s you know……..a dicksucker.

    tiki god

    nobody knows:
    don’t you dare bring me into this insanity


    tiki god:
    Dude just did.
    You made a comment.
    Your going down with the rest of us.


    Didn’t say it was logical; in fact I said it wasn’t. But I didn’t notice a mass exodus out of New York City after 9/11, either. Not quite the same thing, I know, but on some level people will put up with a lot of shit to stay put. That might be illogical, even moronic, but my friend over there was anything but either of those; he’s a Ph.D. and a professor there, just very adamant that he shouldn’t have to leave his home. I’d call it principled, too.


    What’s this got to do about the Matrix?


    dieAntagonista: Hmm i concede your point there.
    I have been flipping through the old testament with my dad and so far on our end we haven’t really seen anything that suggests israel is not supposed to be a nation, at least biblically speaking. But the points nkuk.org/ bring up certainly are interesting and are most likely with merit. It’s a very interesting idea, and i must admit i am inclined to agree with them. The only issue i have with it is that this is: They are assuming that jesus wasn’t the messiah. Now for my own kooky reasons i believe jesus was the messiah, but i don’t have any solid factual reasoning for it. On the other hand the orthodox/non messianic jews don’t have a 100% solid case against the messianics either. So that leaves us with an interesting problem. How are we to determine with absolute certainty that the formation of israel is legitimate religiously speaking? We can argue all day about it but ultimately we won’t find a 100% proveable answer. As far as zionism goes I guess i have a knee jerk reaction to the term zionist considering i see it largely being spouted by neo-nazis and far-right republicans and far left democrats/liberals. I never thought of it as a non-racial descriptor.

    JamesTuskGeorge: \
    And I will see your lack of evidence as intellectual surrender. Attacking the sources politcal/religious alignment does not change the fact that there are absolutely no official laws in israel that even remotely resemble apartheid. PLEASE PROVIDE FACTUAL EVIDENCE TO BACK THIS UP. Pull up an official Israeli law document that supports this view. I’m not talking about semi vague wording that could be construed that way, i am not talking about corrupt individuals in the israeli military I AM TALKING ABOUT HARD DOCUMENTED LAW. As far as ” fair and balanced ” information goes PLEASE PROVIDE AN EXAMPLE.

    TrAyVon'S GhOSt, nuCca


    You win.
    You win The Gaza Strip.

    Billy Manic

    This strikes me as odd. Jews are known for their wittiness, yet they’re carrying incredibly descriptive protest signs without a single witty saying! I call shenanigans on this shit.


    Just so I can get email and not have to read 20 posts at once.

    Thank you. Carry on.


    You want evidence for the accusation of Israel being an apartheid state? There are huge walls right through the middle partioning off the bulk of Arab habitation from Jewish. It has been ruled illegal under international law by the International Court of Justice [1] who term it a “racial segregation wall” that’s some pretty strong evidence, enforced racial segregation is apatheid. Hell, you can even see the walls on google earth.

    The checkpoints, the road blocks, the lack of freedom of movement for Arabs, the lack of right to work in the army for those born Arab, this is racial discrimination, this is Apartheid.

    [1] domino.un.org/UNISPAl.NSF/85255e950050831085255e95004fa9c3/3740e39487a5428a85256ecc005e157a!OpenDocument


    Apartheid is a term. The fact is that there is severe bullying going on in Israel.

    Plus the fact that the wall doesn’t really follow the exact borders that were once set, but sometimes goes a few miles into Palestine territory to include a well into Israeli territory. That being said, Israel has done much good for the watersupplies of the Palestine population, like building more effective wells and stuff. A downside to this is that Israel has most of the control over the watersupplying in those areas.

    So… yeah there are always 2 sides. Like the fact that a certain Palestinian prime minister has a large cement factory that provides a good share of the cement for the wall…

    But come on, you have to agree that building such a wall is beyond imagination.

    I firmly believe that Israel is losing a lot of it’s goodwill with the war it’s waging right now.


    mAgnUS BUTTfoorson:
    america telling israel what to do would be like a ventriloquist dummy putting its hand into the back of the ventriloquist and making him do things


    JamesTuskGeorge: Are these the same kind of walls that we built in Iraq? Are we still trying to build a big wall along our Mexican border? Unless you’re China, walls don’t help.


    nyokki: A big wall is a big wall, but yeah, they’re very similar, expect that the Israeli one is higher and better built (with US tax money).

    However, all is not totaly grim, a huge wall is a great cavass for graffiti, and there is some quality art there.

    TrAyVon'S GhOSt, nuCca


    Oh ya. I forgot about the jewish lobbiest lynch mob walking around Washington.

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