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Amnesty international …


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    Lame propaganda is lame


    I used to harass people in the summer for Amnesty. Trying to give them flyers they didn’t care about, and making them donate money they didn’t want to donate.
    One day I was called a socialist by a stranger on the street, that’s when I recognised the beauty of apathy.

    Alec Dalek

    Yes, fix all the problems here before we start fixing other cultures.


    I think its still down there, I need to look again.


    Y’know, I hate anything that reminds me that reality is harsh and that not everyone enjoys the same human rights we do, the same human rights that allow us to escape into video games, movies, and gossip instead of thinking about the billions that struggle with daily life, be it oppressive regime or basic lack of needs.

    I know! I’ll dehumanize anyone that isn’t part of my ethnic demographic in my country/land/state so that I can treat it as just a number. Hahahaha, silly black/asian/purple people. I don’t care about you. You aren’t real to me.

    /end sarcasm


    P.S. Until you’ve been tortured, you have no idea just how horrible and psychologically damaging it really is.

    There’s a reason McCain would never change his position on that, even though he did everything else to conform to the base. No one should have to go through that.


    I saw that interview with him where he said that just a moment ago. I actually didn’t know that most veterans are against torture. Pretty neat.
    But the whole thing with China – meh. False propaganda from all over the world as we have never seen it.

    Oh yea and O’Reilly’s argument is, well but what if you could save hundreds of lives by torturing one man?


    Tibet live blogs this kind of stuff all the time.

    I wanted to find the Time article about the women being tortured with electric prods in their vaginas, but honestly one reading is enough to scar me for a lifetime.

    There is more evidence of torture and human rights abuse in China than that of torture in any other country in the world. (Note: Evidence. Something we can actually point at). Call it propaganda if that is your prerogative, but it’s been well documented for decades.


    dieAntagonista: Having re-read that, I also fail to see how torturing even one Tibetan can save hundreds of lives.


    I’ve seen so many fake pictures and stories about the situation in Tibet that I don’t believe any of those anymore. It might be true that they torture them, but that is a separate issue.

    Well first off, Tibet is never going to get freed by China. They are not gonna be one day like, oh hey there are a bunch of hippies protesting in America, we better do what they say.

    But what the Tibetans want is theocracy. Consider for a moment, what the Dalai Lama is considered to be. The 14th reincarnation of a theocrat 700 years dead.
    There might be arguments about whether democracy or republic or anarchy is the best form of government, but are there that many people arguing that government by reincarnation works best? It’s absurd. Could you imagine anybody else saying, we believe that a man who thinks himself to be reincarnated should be put at the head of government.
    There is another argument, that Tibetans are their own people and should therefore have their own government, and so that would be Racial Separatism. Could you imagine that in any other country? In the US, blacks should have their own government. That would be something the KKK wants.


    Also, I didn’t say torturing one Tibetan could save hundreds of lives? That was one of Bill O’Reilly’s arguments in regards to terrorist prisoners in Guantanamo.
    I don’t agree with that. It was just in comparison to what McCain believes is right, since they’re both republicans.


    somehow every time human right movement in tibet is mentioned i think of native situation in north america.. why don’t amnesty make a poster about that? or does it have no controversial propaganda values?


    dieAntagonista: “In the US, blacks should have their own government. That would be something the KKK wants.”

    No it wouldn’t. What the KKK would want would be for all the blacks ( and other ethnic groups ) to have their very own rope neckties. With attached trees, of course. Blacks having their own government is the LAST thing the KKK wants. That would be giving them too much freedom. And, you know, treating them like people rather than lesser animals.


    : 100 internets for successfully inserting a Big Lebowski reference into this thread.


    There is a bit more going on with Tibetan theocracy; remember that the Dalai Lama -doesn’t select himself- he is ‘found’ at childhood and raised to believe/realize who he is. I really don’t see anything wrong with that. Especially considering everything I have ever heard him say, I think he’d be an infinitely better leader than any of the ones in charge of other countries today. I wish EVERY country had leaders raised by Tibetan monks.

    Also torture is rather out of date. One of the side benefits of Project Monarch was the development of many far more effective and relatively harmless means of extracting information from people. Mostly through specialized drug usage (not just sodium pentathol) combined with simulated events. (and I don’t mean in the way waterboarding is “simulated” drowning.) Still, the torture of a relatively small number of people is small potatoes and just another symptom of the bigger disease.



    First of all, give me one example of a fake photo. Just one. Then explain to me how that makes the insanely larger amount of actual evidence invalid.

    Secondly, what does this have to do with hippies? Did I mention hippies? Do you think I’m a hippie? Hippies are Republican straw men. (Before you digress, I’m not calling you a Republican, even if you are one. I’m pointing out the fallacy of the argument.)

    There are people fighting and dieing in Tibet as we speak. There are so many people being killed there on a daily basis, that many young Tibetan men are disavowing pacifism and turning militant.

    India threw off hundreds of years of English rule. The Balkans are constantly fighting and achieving independence. Germany reunited as little as 18 years ago. America just went to war to overthrow a government.

    Which of these leads you to believe that just because China incorporated Tibet into the PRC in the last 60 years that they’ll never achieve independence?

    Also, Tibet wants a peaceful theocracy lead by a guy who’s won the NOBEL PEACE PRIZE, and that somehow makes it okay for China to kill and torture these people?!!

    Israel is a theocracy.

    Does that meant Israel is an invalid country, and that it’s okay for other people to go there and torture them because others don’t share the same beliefs? O_o

    Oh, also:
    “There is another argument, that Tibetans are their own people and should therefore have their own government… Could you imagine that in any other country?”




    He gets to use the pool, right? Think positive.


    Yeah that’s true, but the fact that they’re ‘found’ as a child, is even more of a reason why it’s absurd.

    I wasn’t saying that he’s a bad man.
    And raised by Tibetan monks – yes maybe. But Tibetan Buddhism? No thank you. People who believe in reincarnation and that if they suffer it’s because of things they have done in their past life – I have no respect for that.


    Sorry, when I wrote fake photo, I meant they manipulated it. It’s not really fake, but deceiving.
    Here’s a picture they showed on cnn –
    Looks like two unarmed Tibetans and of course the bad bad Chinese military.

    The actual picture –
    They threw rocks at them.
    And there are more like this. But one is enough to not make me believe anything I see anymore. I’m skeptical like that, for others it might take more.

    I explained what I think of the situation. Why do you feel attacked? I didn’t call you a hippie, I didn’t say anything that would indicate that I’m a republican either. I consider myself to be somewhat of a hippie. So there.

    I didn’t say that it’s ok if Tibetans die. What are you talking about? So I don’t agree with Tibet’s theocracy and that means I automatically agree with what China does? Come on, make up your mind. Just because I say I don’t like apples doesn’t mean I love bananas.

    What is going on, what did I say that makes you think I’m ok with China killing anybody?
    I don’t care if he won the Nobel Peace Prize. Theocracy is something I think is wrong and that’s it.

    And Israel isn’t the kind of theocracy that Tibet wants to be. They don’t think their leader reincarnates for god’s sake.
    Yes actually, Israel is an invalid country. For different reasons. For one, they treat the Palestinians, whose land they have stolen, like shit. And then there’s the fact that the Torah forbids any Jewish country.

    Well yeah, Israel isn’t exactly accepted by the majority of people now is it? Bad example.


    Quote: “I didn’t say that it’s ok if Tibetans die.”
    Quote: “But the whole thing with China – meh.”

    This is all in regards to a picture and thread about Chinese torture and murder.

    Quote: “But what the Tibetans want is theocracy. Consider for a moment…”

    This is again in regards to Chinese torture. Why should I consider what kind of government they want? Well, in this case, it must be in regards to the argument (Chinese torture), or else it is a digression (changing the argument to something that is easier to defend and argue).

    You know what? I’m not in this to “win.”

    -Tibet is a very peaceful land.

    -Torture is wrong.

    -China has a very well documented history of the use of torture against Tibet.

    That’s all. I’m done here.


    First off, The Tibetans have been perfectly happy with their system of theocracy. And would still be, had the Chinese not invaded. So there really is no true link between Israel and Tibet. Israel isn’t truly a theocracy, due to the simple fact that not every citizen is not a member of the religion in charge. The Palestinians are a large chunk of the population. Tibet, on the other hand, is heavily Tibetan buddhist, thus their theocracy, should they eventually regain it, is at least a valid theocracy.
    As for fake photos, I’m all for propaganda if it means the people of Tibet get what they want.
    Really, I just a PRC hater, who can’t wait for the dynastic cycle to dump the communist government on it’s ass, and go back to an imperial system.


    dieAntagonista: Looks like two unarmed men and two military vehicles, no implications as to “good” or “bad”. *Shrug* ‘course, not sure of the story that was run with the picture…


    dieAntagonista: I don’t think that is any more absurd than the idea of giving power to someone who *wants* it or pays 5 million to buy it… that is inherently corrupt, and power is magnetic to the easily corruptible.

    Whilst being raised from an age of innocence under a peaceful meditative way of life into a position of power develops the most selfless incorruptible person I can imagine. Why does it matter if they believe in reincarnation any more than it matters if our leaders believe in Heaven & Hell and all that far more absurd mythology?

    I don’t understand and would like to know why you have no respect for Tibetan Buddhism and their way of dealing with suffering; It’s far more practical than trying to reconcile suffering from a “God Who Loves Us”. What have Buddhists done to you to deserve your disrespect?




    Karatesaurus Rex

    As for the Dalai Lama, he may or may not be a reincarnation, that’s not for us to decide. What he is though is an incredible man with nothing but love for humanity.

    Got the honor of meeting him in person when I worked at Shoreline Amphiteatre. Not sitting down for beers and talkin about women, but I got to smile and say hi and was within about 5 feet of him, close enough to pat him on the shoulder if I was less respectful and definately close enough to be somewhat changed by the experience. I don’t know what it is, but there’s something about the man, impossible to explain or pinpoint, but it was relaxing just having him pass by and without saying a word he oozed the calm suredness and charisma of a man that I was happy to listen to.

    Every one of us that worked that show left it a little changed. I was a farmboy raised to be a raving sceptic by Republican, religious farmers. The Dalai Lama kinda made me open my eyes a bit. I’m not out visiting psychics now or anything of the sort, but he actually gave me a little faith in humanity listening to his words. If Tibet wants him as their leader in a theocracy, then so be it, I can’t think of a better man to lead a country into a golden age as long as the rest of the world was willing to sit back and leave them in peace.


    Gayo finally is introduced to Magnus. Nothing like a swirly.


    It really bugs me when the idea of being against torture or inprisonment without due course of law is conflated with socialism or “being a hippie”. The fact that it happens bugs me even more.
    On another note, I had thought that McCain had buckled somewhat on the torture issue, at least so far as to agree with Bush that waterboarding is not torture. Was I incorrect about that?


    So when I write ‘meh’ that means to you ‘I’m ok with China killing people’?
    Look, I know what China is doing is wrong, but I don’t think that theocracy will make anything better.
    What do you mean by ‘win’? Haven’t we talked about enough things for you to know that I’m not trying to ‘win’ anything? Gee.

    From what I’ve seen Tibet hasn’t been that peaceful. And I believe if they would stop trying to get to this theocracy, the torturing and whatnot is more likely to stop.

    And what also bothers me, is that this whole thing has been abused every where, to picture China like these barbaric monsters. If they have really done what they have been reporting, then why try to deceive the masses with doctored pictures?


    I know that from an outsider point of view their religion seems perfectly peaceful and good.
    I can see how their appearance makes you think, what’s wrong with that?

    Yes people who believe in hell and heaven are concerning as well, but at least Christians agree that this is the only life we have on this earth.
    Buddhists on the other hand?
    I’m terrified by people who think this isn’t the only life we have. Their way of life is peaceful and everything, but don’t their children have a right to get everything out of their lives as well?
    I have in my mind this picture, of a Buddhist suffering, and another one telling him, it’s ok he probably was an asshole in his past life.

    I respect how they treat other people, but I don’t respect how they treat themselves and their children.


    dieAntagonista: What don’t you like about the idea of reincarnation specifically? They still care what happens in this life. They still believe that to do good now helps in the next incarnation. I have no more problem w/ them than I have w/ any other religion and other than that I think they’re wrong (as I think w/ all religions), I’m fine w/ what they want for themselves. Any time superpowers try to gobble up smaller nearby nations, this sort of trouble happens. People don’t like the idea that might makes right. They will always rebel.


    The idea of reincarnation takes away from the uniqueness of life. I can’t explain to you how terrified I am by this. If this is the only life I have, and I should die not having realised this, and not having done everything that I would have done had I known this – I’d die the saddest woman in the world. It would be a loss, so great, nobody can comprehend.

    Yes I have no problem with them either, everybody is free to do what they want if it doesn’t harm anybody. But my understanding is that it’s not only all about doing good to them, it’s also a lot about suffering. And children who are born in that culture never learn that you have your life in your own hands. I find that tragic. It’s like amputating minds.

    In retrospect, I’ve just discovered a flaw in my logic. Since I’m so convinced this is the only life we have, they have every right to do what they think is right to them and their children even if they don’t ‘know’ it’s the only life they have (if we’re assuming I’m right about life).
    I need to rethink this.
    Bloody MCS making me doubt everything I thought was right.


    dieAntagonista: Sux, doesn’t it. ;<)


    If AI says the US tortures, people sing their praises. If AI says China tortures, it’s called propaganda.

    Governments are like evil people: some are more evil than others. Why do people have a need to create moral equivalency? So that they can feel like fighting the US government (which is easy) is every bit as important and praiseworthy as fighting China’s?

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