Kim Petras

German - Kim.jpg (89 KB)

Thought I would share this with you.

Personally i’d nom if all parts where in the right place. (Well as long as there is only penis)


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    As long as there is ‘only’ penis? Wow I hope that’s a typo.


    Hello Tim


    thats weird shit there. She/he is hot lol, but then again hes/she has been on hormones for four years, while he was growing, so i mean he just “grew” into it.


    wait… What? This is a dude?


    “In a 1000 years, there’ll be no boys, no girls, just wankers. Sounds bloody great to me!” Ewan McCgrgor


    I’ve known many transexuals- both m-f and f-m. I’ve got to say- my problems seem very small and insignificant compared to being born in the wrong body. They go through HELL.

    More power to her.


    God damnit storminator don’t you realize where you’re posting?

    Oh, well, in before predictable shitstorm.


    Actually, I’ll do the work for you guys so you don’t have to predictably bore me yourselves:

    Person #1: Jesus defined Penis it’s in the bible!! Don’t you respect the English language. I think you should talk to a pastor but make sure you go to a 1908 reform baptist church all other churches are the puppet of Satan.

    Person #2: I’m not religious -I’m an atheist in fact -but my values system exactly corresponds to a very rural, modern and specifically American strain of Christianity. I, however, coincidently arrived at those conclusions by pure reason.

    Person #3: Fucking god faggot damn god damn faggots. I’m a god damn red blooded herterosexual not like you faggot freaks. I’ll never fucking touch a whore woman because faggot feminists faggoting faggoted up womanry. I’m proud to say I’ve never even spoken to a woman like a pure heterosexual ought to fucking faggot ass faggot pansies.

    Person #4: I’m a veteran!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I didn’t spend four years being payed in tax money to defend the freedoms of some German dickgirl who wants to have a vagina using the tax money I would theoretically pay if I had ever been employed. Fucking liberals don’t respect the freedoms I personally give them. Everyone should agree with me because I’m a veteran.


    storminator: Care to elaborate?


    #1 FUCK YOU, god damn self righteous prick.


    sorry person #1 FUCK YOU, god damn self righteous prick.

    Brevity Truta

    Mike’s Trap.


    When you see it, You’ll shit bricks. Or take one in.


    am amused by Ciao’s post.


    I’d hit it!


    Caio forgot one.

    Person #5: I’m a no-account Canadian douchebag with a little kid’s need for attention. LOOK AT ME!!!


    For the record, SHE was born with a male body but a female mind and should be referred to as SHE. As far as I know she has not had surgery yet, and so would still have a penis, but you may want to consult a dictionary on the difference between the terms “sex” and “gender” before you go ahead and prove how ignorant y’all are*

    *I’m assuming most people choosing to post here are probably comletely ignorant of trans issues, if not completely transphobic.

    Luke Magnifico

    She looks like a girl, probably sounds like a girl, she’s a girl.

    Also, why is this news.

    I hate society.


    I think we need Admiral Akbar to chime in on this one…


    draikyn, I believe it’s a person’s right to do whatever they want with they own body, but I have a problem with your reasoning. A bunch of years ago I worked in a hospital where I’ve met people who believe, in their minds, they were Elvis Presley and/or Jesus Christ Going my your reasoning, was I wrong not to believe them?


    Gor you were my real life inspiration for person #2. Enjoy your confirmation bias.

    Luke Magnifico



    Who’s to say they weren’t Jesus?

    Not you anyway.


    gor: no offense gor, but this was a case of a clinically recognized condition, identified by a professional, and carried out on the cusp of natural puberty. it’s more analogous to the docs in your hospital prescribing meds for the Elvis-heads.
    Obviously, I don’t know the science way down on the genetic scale, but from what little I do know, it seems reasonable to claim that (via mutation or other term for rare anomaly) a brain predisposed to belong to a female could end up getting stuck with a biologically male body.
    If anyone does know the science, please chime in- I find psych/biology interactions like this fascinating


    Who said I was an atheist? Damn Caio, you just go from one fucking mistake to the next, you are truly a failure. Are you happy now that someone is paying attention to you?

    I’ve met a few tranies in my life and most were decent people. It’s their body if they want to modify it, some people do it with tattos, some women get breast enlargements and some guys feel a need to get to penis extensions (like Caio). It’s being a douchebags about it (like Caio) that is normally the problem.


    I don’t wanna start anything, but under the completely ridiculous circumstance that you could ‘Prove’ that a person was in fact born with the brain of the opposing gender. Starting of course at the fact that there are discernible biological differences between male and female brains. *Certainly under further examination they will find that NO, this boy contains the brain of a healthy human male.*
    You can further speculate, that perhaps through some form of spiritual or metaphysical mistake, a very firmly female spirit, or ‘essence’ managed its way into a boys body. Fine, that’s as hard to prove as refute, so we’ll leave it there.

    With all of this on the table, now what? So you’re a boy now, what do you do? Do you force head long against not only biological but social barriers and reasoning? Or do you start taking hormones, and dress and act and think like the opposite gender? Fine, so you convinced us you were ‘supposed’ to be a girl. So the fuck what?! You AREN’T!! Deal with it. Don’t make a damn spectacle of yourself and worsen the human experience considerably by fucking with your metabolism. It mocks natures design.


    Well, MrDooves, Nature fucks up.

    I guess it’s ‘mocking nature’s design’ when two people separate themselves after being conjoined for fourteen years, eh?


    Yes, Nature fucks up, that fact is unrelated. This person was born as a completely healthy human male. That wasn’t a fuck up. Comparing a birth defect to a completely natural human? Get serious.


    MrDooves: so then you’re saying that psychology has nothing to do with biology? Or at least, that in this case the two have no correlation? somewhere in the mental hard-wiring of this kid’s brain, there were some fundamental differences from the way a normally gendered brain forms (not differences in the organ itself, but in how the neural pathways developed). It’s not all nurture. I mean we’ve all heard of the cases of parents trying to force a child into the wrong gender (due to their own weird issues) and in most cases the child rejects the conditioning because of the way they “feel.”
    This case seems to be a situation where Nature has assigned this psyche into a gender that it doesn’t fit into, *kind* of like some crazy parent



    “Certainly under further examination they will find that NO, this boy contains the brain of a healthy human male.”

    you’re making a completely baseless assumption. studies have shown that the brain structure of gay men and straight women are similar where straight men and lesbians’ brains differ.


    Baseless assumption, except that its ‘Based’ on hundreds of years of medical fact and theorem. Male and female brains are innumerably distinctively different. You aren’t trying to tell me that this boys body was physically combined with a female brain on a genetic level. In that case, i’m sure you could classify this as a birth defect. The fact is, he was born normal and healthy as a boy. Even if you believe there is a girl trapped in there somewhere, this person chose to shun a perfectly healthy human form, and use drastic unnatural means to augment themselves. I find it offensive.

    Sure, fine, you were ‘supposed’ to be a chick. You aren’t! Get over it. Like being a guy is so bad? If I reincarnate as a dolphin in the next life, i’m not gonna flop up on land and try to put some pants on. I’m a damn dolphin. The pants don’t fit no more, so you shut up and swim.

    In the last 50 years, the human race has grown so stagnant and bored, we keep making up new conditions, and inventing new mental diseases. I’m almost ashamed to see so many people rise up and fight for something that virtually vomits on the face of natural course.


    As if life and the universe aren’t diverse and complex enough as it is. As a species, we wont be happy until we’ve fucked and distorted everything within our influence. Just because we can, doesn’t mean we should.


    On a lighter note, it kinda looks like an Olsen Twin.


    MrDooves: Looks like an Olsen Twin, Olsen Twins are girls, “it” looks like a girl…. Maybe that’s because she is a girl? Gosh, with a name like Kim, who would have thunk of that? Walks like a duck, talks like a duck….

    MrDooves: “In the last 50 years, the human race has grown so stagnant and bored, we keep making up new conditions, and inventing new mental diseases. I’m almost ashamed to see so many people rise up and fight for something that virtually vomits on the face of natural course.”
    Oh, yeah, this is *totally* new to homo sapiens, never ever even heard of anything like this before 1958. Damn kids, disrupting my safe little gender binary.


    MrDooves: every time humans use a tool rather than their bare hands we “use unnatural means to augment ourselves.”
    Are you simple?
    listen- just accept that people have the right to pursue health and happiness as they see fit, and as long as you aren’t being personally pressured to either go through with the procedure or fuck the recipient, just keep your prejudice to yourself


    Finn: It looks like a ‘girl’ because its taken great pains, and lengthy unnatural transitioning to become so. I can wear a pretty convincing Zombie costume, but i’m not gonna start eating brains.

    You just referenced a completely unrelated topic.
    This person was ‘born’ as a boy. A normal healthy boy, then began to use drugs and other drastic measures to obtain a completely different gender.
    You can Wiki all you like, it isn’t going to justify that mentality.


    elzarcothepale: Isn’t the point of this post for people to discuss the topic? Are you telling me to neglect the entire purpose of a thread? I’m not in anyone’s face, I’m functioning within the confines of a sanctioned debate forum. You don’t agree with me? Fine. I’m happy to live in a world with so many differing points of view. Gives me something to rant about.

    When is the last time you used a tool to “Augment yourself”? and i’m not talking about lifting weights to achieve better muscle tone. That’s not augmentation. Get a grip on terminology, alright chief?

    “just accept that people have the right to pursue health and happiness as they see fit”
    The process of switching your natural gender is anything but healthy. Physically, OR mentally.

    I’m not even going to reply to the “simple” comment. I’m not here to trade insults.


    I love your use of the word, ‘normal.’ THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS NORMAL. To say this girl was born as a normal healthy boy this and that makes her have to be a boy is bullshit. Talk about some serious ignorance. If you were suddenly turned into a woman with your psyche intact, I highly doubt you would just start going with it.

    You get serious. It’s pretty down right phobic for a person to expect another person to act within a certain set of ‘norms’ to put it, for the sake of the preservation of ‘norms.’ This girl wanted to be a girl because she felt and knew she was a girl. Get the fuck over it and stop being a douche with your clouded mentality of set gender specifics.


    MrDooves: you aren’t discussing anything but your disgust for people whose problems, health and lives in general you have no knowledge of.
    Further, this is so far from a “sanctioned debate” that it’s pretty funny to think of it as one. As for augmenting, Lasik surgery is a pretty decent example. Regardless, augmentation is just another one of the tools humans have devised in our little pause button on evolution. It’s in our nature, if you will, to adapt ourselves in order to survive. We use more and more sophisticated tools to facilitate that adaption process. For this individual- adaptation into a comfortable niche in society required that she make a change of gender. Sure, she could have stuck it out, and just suffered through, but then she’d be missing out on her full potential.
    Even if it was unnatural, my question is why do you care? It doesn’t affect you- how would you conduct yourself in this discussion if she were participating? Would you seriously try and tell her that she is wrong and unnatural?
    In case it matters, the reason I’m in this discussion is an interest in the biological/psychological reason rather than the rightness or wrongness of it.


    I’m going to guess that there have been humans who felt they were the wrong gender for as long as there have been humans. There have been gay people for as long as we’ve been keeping records. It seems reasonable to me that other deviations from the “normal” set up for breeding would have been around since the beginning too.

    This kid is lucky to be able to act on this so early. My brother has been contemplating taking hormones since he came out and admitted that he felt he was meant to be a woman but I think that even if he does decide to do so, it just won’t be as effective because he’s already grown into an adult male. I told him that since he wants to keep his penis just to get a boob job and bypass fucking with his hormones.

    Stuff like this doesn’t bother me because it has little to do with anything that actually matters in life and it doesn’t hurt anyone else.

    Brevity Truta

    There is no pause button on evolution, and with how many bajillion of us on the planet, this isn’t a matter of survival but of doing something because we can.

    I don’t think it’s as simple as ‘males have male brains’ and vice-versa. Like sexuality, gender characteristics are a spectrum (there’s some light online tests to say whether you have a more ‘male’ or ‘female’ brain). It’s not so far-fetched for someone in a male body to relate more to being female, and because they *can* become female physically, do so.

    It’s not wrong for her to do it.

    I do draw the line at otherkin getting surgical wings and beaks though, when we learn how to genetically engineer chicken parts onto ourselves.


    I use the word “Normal” in context to the very distinct biological boundaries that human kind should NEVER cross. Its one thing to choose your sexuality, and something else entirely to think you can swap genders at your leisure. Humans are Unstable, greedy, immature,… the list goes on. This was NEVER meant to be a decision for the fragile human mind to undertake. We’ve become so damn obsessed with the question of whether or not we ‘could’ we never stopped to think if we ‘Should’.

    If our messed up society didn’t offer the option, he would have lived a happy life as a homosexual or a cross dresser, god knows. People that are completely happy, and didn’t need to make dangerous and radical augmentations to their natural form. But when you start chopping off, and sewing on new parts, you cross the line from ‘life choice’ to ‘mad science’. The technology shouldn’t exist.

    You trivialize a horrendous decision in the hands of a teenager. This kid is barely conscious enough to decide what to wear, or what to eat, but now we’re letting them choose their gender? The ramifications, both socially, and biologically are paramount, but no, this ‘Kid’ thinks he was given a bad deal, so he whines to ma and pa, and they sign on the dotted line, and BAM!!! Your a girl now.

    Does the ease of this situation not Erk anyone else? Where do we draw the line? Soon people will be altering their childrens gender at infancy, just because they hoped for something different. China would have a field day with this. Mark my words, we will go too far, and nature will start to retaliate.


    Brevity Truta: yeah, i just use the “pause button” term because of the fact that humans use technology to avoid the natural methods of “survival of the fittest.” In other words, we use tech to keep individuals alive that otherwise wouldn’t hack it solo. I know that’s still evolution- without our social structure and and the tech, we wouldn’t be quite so fit to survive as a species.


    no- it doesn’t “irk” me. Change is coming, perhaps in the long term, but coming nevertheless. Tech and nature are going to be married a lot closer in the future. It’s a frontier. There are risks and responsibilities. You should probably just hide in the basement.


    Wow, Mr. Dooves, I didn’t know you were the universal arbiter of objective truth AND universal social norms in all cultures.

    Listen, dumbshit, I know more anthropology and ethnology than you know anything. Stop feigning objectivity and lay of the auxiliary verbs/temporal adverbs. You’re making yourself look even stupider than you are.

    But hey don’t worry no where to go but up.

    Luke Magnifico

    Randomguy: She hasn’t had the surgery yet, she still has a penis.

    On the other hand, it might be very small, because of the hormone treatment.

    So you could just flip her over, and play pretend.


    Caio: I hear you talk a whole lot about what you know, but you lack any ability applying that knowledge into a fucking lick of wisdom. You throw insults far better than logic. I guess everybody is good at something.


    There no such thing as objective gender roles, nor objective gender ideas. Except for basic physical features gender is entirely socially conditioned and any brief survey of ethnological literature on sexuality will tell you that.

    Do you know how many cultures let people switch gender roles, usually at a young age? Most. Some band cultures had ‘third genders’ those who could selectively choose which gender roles and work to fulfil.

    Gender roles were generally normative within the context of kinship systems (most kinship systems are far more elaborate than our own Modern Western ones) and to determine gender-based work.

    In an increasingly secular society where work is becoming increasingly gender neutral, do we really need to cling to late-Judeo-Christian gender norms that largely appeared only about 200-ish years ago or less and were derived from ideas more pertinent to medieval/pre-industrial social models?

    People like you, who assume that their own cultural models (dated ones at that) are the only ones possible for human survival are so small-minded and ill-informed it disgusts me.

    Only if Jesus whispers it in your ears. Or, otherwise, if you’re a fucking idiot cunt like Dooves.


    Caio: When did you get such a hate on for me anyway? Did I threaten the sanctity of your epic bubble of intelligence.
    God forbid someone speak against the mighty omniscient Caio. You weren’t even in this fuckin thread.


    Because everything you say is stupid, Dooves. I’ve yet to see you make a good post.

    Brevity Truta

    That makes sense, on the pause button.

    Thinking about what to say about a world where medical science is pushing all kinds of frontiers while thousands of children die every day from drinking unclean water.


    Caio: As always, missing the point entirely. Ethnological, Cultural, Social, each term completely out of place. I’m happy for all your immense knowledge regarding all these topics. The question at hand is Biological.
    Should a teenager be faced with the immense decision of changing something as absolute as gender? I’m not talking about ‘gender roles’ within society, though i’m sure your rant may have been very impressive in the proper context.

    Brevity Truta

    I know you were asking Caio, Mr Dooves, but people who identify with a gender do so consistently, from when they are old enough to pick up sparkly unicorns, or toy trucks.

    Seems a good age to do it, so she can have a productive life and not spend the formative 20s in societal hell.


    Children have been given the choice in gender in many many societies. Usually most cultures had an adulthood ritual and one’s “gender”, if one did not agree with it, was switched before that time.

    Typically this is something associated with smaller cultures, but I was just reading how European, civilized, conservative Muslim Albania even had a gender system like that right up until the beginning of the century; it was mostly lost to outside influence. So at one point or another you had gender choosing systems on every continent somewhere or another.

    Now if all these cultures are fine with letting people choose their “gender mindsets” at a young age; even knowing that it’s a life-time choice, then why not let they take on the bits and pieces as well?

    Because it’s beyond the norms of your own society, Dooves, and you’re using muddled rhetoric to spiritualize arbitrary cultural practises in order to feign objectivity.


    Brevity Truta: You join the many that continue to reference society as a primary cause for such a drastic biological invasion. It may be true, that society forces people like this to feel outcast, but it only shines a light on how sad we all look in it’s wake. Was there really no place for this person to feel comfortable and happy without needing such an invasive procedure.


    Caio: I appreciate you deciding to actually join the discussion, and not continue hurling flippant remarks. Its slightly more becoming.


    I’m trying to assume an unbiased stance, but as Caio states, it is near impossible for one to form an opinion without it being influenced by social paradigms.

    On the other hand, I find flaws in the logic that just because other cultures and countries have sanctioned such behavior throughout history, that this should have any weight on its moral implications. Humans have been doing ALOT of incredibly stupid and inane things from the beginnings of history.


    I believe that as a species, we should have some boundaries. I don’t presume to dictate these boundaries, but from my perspective, allowing a teenager of a species that is fundamentally childish from an outside perspective, should not be given the freedom or option to alter something so sacred.
    Regardless our spotty history, i’m proud of humankind, and I feel that this particular action trivializes a big part of what makes us human.


    Erm, well, to me from my experiences and what I know, being human means something entirely different.

    The only thing that distinguishes us from the animals is 1) language and 2) the fact that we have adaptive cultures that are generally open to change.

    Chimpanzees are social animals, but their social behaviours are basically the same as they were 500 years ago when described by Pacheco Pereira.

    Think of how much Western Culture has changed in that same 500 years. That’s being human to me.

    Brevity Truta

    Mr Dooves:

    Sorry to throw that at you, but it’s beyond me to sum up in a post and it’s not my area.

    It’s actually science that’s shedding the light, and society needs to catch up and get a handle on it, so there’s not a huge divide between scientists and most laypeople. Only by being informed can the ordinary people work through democracy to prevent Dr Moreaus from unleashing untold horrors on the world.

    Otherwise it’s just all bury our heads in the sand and cry ‘save us Apocalypse!’ while they do it anyway.


    And what of life on earth in general?
    Every species, even plants have gender. Its one of the more important building blocks that framed our evolution. Our mental evolution has taken us away from all the important natural ties we have with the earth. Certainly progress is important, but the certainties, the comforts of natural genetics and biology are falling by the way side.

    We make bolder and bolder strokes in the name of progress, but we lose sight of the big picture. Tree hugging sentiment aside, its just scary to see us fuck with the natural course. How will drastic decisions in the way of human biology effect the next generations, or the next evolutions of our own kind? Will we extend so far past the conventions of life that we’ll one day be rejected by the earth and cycles we were born from?


    Brevity Truta: Good article, and while it touches on the subject, it deals with infants that are somehow naturally born without a gender. Not exactly the current debate. Scary in itself however. The doctors abstaining from interference sort of coincides with my beliefs that things are the way they are for a reason. We start horsing around with important genetic and biological boundaries, then where will that thinking eventually lead us? Dr. moreaus indeed.

    Brevity Truta

    I think gender is a human thing, because we’re that much more complex than other creatures. I agree with the idea that it’s very bad to disconnect from the natural world as though we’re above it, but the fact is we are different: it’s a power that can be used for good or ill.

    The babies are born with ‘indeterminate gender’, which isn’t the same thing as having none.

    The doctors abstain from interference on the child’s behalf, not when the child grows up and decides for themselves; again a different thing.

    This was in the article:

    “So, what is it that determines gender identity? It’s a difficult question. Scientists simply do not know what creates the internal sense of being male or female. What’s increasingly clear is that gender identity does not necessarily follow from genes, upbringing, or anatomy, even in people with ordinary genitals. That growing recognition, some doctors say, has prompted a new humility about making those decisions on a child’s behalf.”

    Brevity Truta

    Gender is a human thing, animals have sex differences and behavioural differences (some animals are ‘gay’) but they don’t define themselves by gender – simple societies, natural instincts, and so on, and it’s silly to impose gender on them.

    Plants, well … I do wonder about carrots sometimes.


    What repercussions will SHE have? Seems she’s quite happy with it. Oh, wait, we’ll have closed-minded arses like yourself constantly judging her. Why does it fucking affect you? It’s HER choice, NOT yours, get the fuck over it. Same thing with Gay Marriage and reproductive choices, abortion, etc, etc. Does it affect you? Really? No, of course not, you just rather impose your idiocy upon others.

    Control, control, control.


    Wow… Another thread of wonderment and WIN… And Mr. Dooves reprising his usual role…

    Let me ask you this Mr Dooves. Do you exercise/work out? And why/why not?


    awfulintentions: How can discussing my opinions on a subject in a thread designed for exactly that purpose be so offensive to people? I’m not in anyone’s face about anything. I’m debating a profound moral issue on an internet forum. I’m not picketing in public here, or screaming obscenities at them directly. and for the most part, until jack asses without their own useful input come floundering along, its been pretty informative.

    You’re absolutely right, it doesn’t effect me. Neither do all those other subjects you pulled out your ass. So what? Where can people talk about these things and express how they feel if not a damn internet thread where the topic is in play? Bunch of little girls on this site lately.

    Phyreblade: Yes I work out, I’m a Yoga instructor. What terribly clever way can you relate that to the current situation? And by usual role, do you mean speaking up? God forbid someone should do that.
    Most of you people just sling insults instead of actually attempting to give or gain new knowledge. Its like junior high all over again.


    MrDooves: oh, i work out for many reasons. 1. you look better. 2. you feel better. 3. you live and stay healthy longer.
    How is this relevant? Lay it on me smart guy.


    Bah! Morals, schmorals.
    Everything is relative, and the things that you find ‘wrong’ or immoral may be considered completely normal somewhere else in the world. It doesn’t make them wrong and you right, or vice versa.

    I apologise Mr Dooves, but I can’t take much that you say seriously anymore after your “small body size = sexy and healthy, and larger body size = unhealthy and repulsive” argument a while back.
    Oh, sorry – you’re a yoga instructor, so you must be our resident authority on health and bodies and flexibility and everything else that you profess to have any knowledge in at all.
    Silly me.

    Then again, if you just pop up here and there to argue with people and generate ‘debate’, then go for it, and many thanks! Just try not to have 3 times as many comments as everybody else next time, it gets a bit boring.

    Brevity Truta

    Just brilliant, well worth a watch. Found it looking for Kim Petras’ video. She’s a sweet kid but not in the articulacy and humour league of this lady.

    It’s Calpernia Addams: list of dumbass questions not to ask a transsexual.


    (finally)Brevity Truta: funny chick- i just wish she hadn’t bleeped out her *dumbfucks*

    MrDooves: well, regardless of your opinions, if you are treating this like the “sanctioned debate forum” you mentioned earlier, I think it’s fairly clear that you have lost the “debate.”
    I say that loosely of course, but the only way to “win” a debate online is to state your case and persuade your opponent or the general opinion to either agree with you or agree that your opinion is valid in the sense that it doesn’t make everyone else think that you are a douchenozzle.
    You have failed in this sir, and while you may cry “foul” and say that you don’t care what anyone else thinks, I say:
    and they say:


    bajizzle: That thread was a month ago. Hold a grudge much? For internet folk, you all get offended pretty easily.
    I wasn’t bragging about being a yoga instructor, and I only bother bringing it up when its pertinent to the conversation, so stop acting like a jealous 10 year old. Only reason I have so many posts, is because I’m responding to the comments of several, each raising points to be replied to.

    elzarcothepale:Due to the stubborn mentality of most internet folk, *myself included* there is no such thing as winning a debate here. Nobody would ever budge or concede to a point, no matter how well founded. I was here to express my opinion, and read and absorb what I can from the responses.
    Some people however, are unable to take a mature standpoint on matters like this. They get emo angsty about the subject matter, and instead of discussing the issue, they throw insults.
    When someone does that in a debate, it constitutes a fairly firm loss. Or to the layman *Fail*
    The only way you could reason out loss for me, is because my perspective is vastly outnumbered on this thread. That doesn’t make me wrong. There were lots of Nazi’s too, but it doesn’t mean their cause was well founded.

    All that aside, i was glad to discuss this topic with the few that took it seriously. And I consider myself a bit better off for the wisdom of those involved.


    MrDooves: LOL OK, “smart guy” I am not. What I do try to do is look at things from every possible perspective. And the point of my question is this:

    Why do you think it is OK for you to take measures to influence (and probably flat out change) what nature and your environment alone might have made you look and feel like, but do not understand when others do the same?

    Even if this particular type of change /augmentation can be considered extreme by some generic social standard, to paraphrase elzarcothepales’ point, every time we pick up a hammer, we are using unnatural means to augment ourselves. It is simply a matter of degree.

    Is Jamie Lee Curtis a man or a woman? Do your research. You will find the answer is not so clear cut. There are many, many men and women walking around the planet who’s genetic (XX/XY) genders are diametrically opposed to their congenital phenotypical (uterus/ovaries vs penis/testes) characteristics.

    Your point of view seems to imply that it is wrong for a phenotypical female carrying XY chromosomes to make any attempt to appear male because that is the way nature made him/her. But it is OK for an effeminate looking male with XY chromosomes to work out and bulk up?

    Don’t you think that is a bit phenotypically biased? Or is it just about personal aesthetics? And if so, then what differentiates your exercise regimen from transgenderment?


    MrDooves: Also, just to clarify what I meant by saying your “usual role”, it is less about “speaking up” and more about how exactly you convey your opinion. I have no problems with people expressing their opinions.

    However I think you get a lot of flak because you tend to state your opinions as though they were matters of fact, instead of personal viewpoints, and frequently interlace them with subtle judgment statements.

    These combine to turn what you believe to be personal opinions into personal attacks on the demographic at issue. People tend to pick up and respond to this negatively, because, well, you are making it personal…

    Don’t know if you realize you are doing this or not, but I thought I’d mention it…


    Also, i keep forgetting: Caio: ROFLMAO!!!


    Phyreblade: Though I see your point, I find the comparison to be quite a stretch. Up until the last few hundred years, working out didn’t really exist. However, recently, we’ve developed so many technologies that negate the need for natural health and fitness. We’ve grown lazy, working out is just a structured way of obtaining that which should have naturally occurred. I emphasize the term ‘natural’. The process of improving our physical form should be obtained through natural means. Eating healthy foods, and building tone for the sake of full body efficiency in a gradual and structured regimen with your own health and standard of living in mind.

    I don’t approve of body building for sheer aesthetics, and certainly not the use of steroids, or other influences that would exceed that of a natural course. This is however the low end of the spectrum, Gender swap is topping the charts for me currently.

    Doing what our body and muscles were meant to do to achieve a healthier and more natural form. Do you see what I’m getting at. I don’t see fitness as “augmentation”. I see it as the process of perfecting and obtaining what was naturally intended. So I don’t find your comparison very pertinent.

    Certainly, in regard to someone born with indeterminable gender, you’re in a different topic altogether. If you weren’t dealt a hand at all, then science has afforded us the option to give them another chance, and for that I applaud them. But for someone who was born with a healthy natural body and gender, then to reject your natural course and use drastic measures to alter it far beyond that of convention. Thats where I start to question the moral and biological validity of such a decision. Especially when being made by a teenager, who knows so little of the world already. There are children born everyday with birth defects, or gender problems, or mutations that would give anything to achieve what this kid so easily balked. Do you see my point?

    Straight out, i wanna stress the fact that I would never talk down to someone who was making this decision themselves unless they asked for my honest opinion. I’m not a complete asshole, and I have a bit of tact, but this thread gives people the opportunity to put their perspective on the table for review. I feel I need a damn disclaimer because people are so anxious to attack me just for ‘having’ an opinion.


    MrDooves: Ok, so we have grown lazy. Valid point. However I don’t believe my comparison as so much of a stretch, as much as a broader way of looking at things.

    Prehistoric humans were not the slim, trim healthy creatures that many “naturalists” make them out to be. They were “all natural” in the truest and purest sense of the words, but I do not believe that the condition we call healthy and “optimal” today were what they were back then.

    They would perhaps have generally been a lot less overweight. And there would certainly have been a greater incidence of “ideal” body types, that I’ll grant you. But I do not think they were the norm. I think they would have been as varied in body types, fat, slim, wiry, heavy, etc. as we are today.

    I think we have done a lot of things in the name of “health” and “fitness” that we label “natural” but are really not. I think the term “natural form” is meaningless today, as *nothing* we do is natural.

    In other words, we have adopted a historically unnatural lifestyle and have also therefore resorted to unnatural means of staying healthy.

    We grow foods ad raise livestock in ways and places they are not indigenous to. We take health supplements and medicines that do not occur in nature.

    From your non GMO farm grown wheat, to aspirin to steroids, *none* of it is truly natural, they have all been cross bred, processed, or otherwise tampered with in one way or another, so I therefore consider them all a form of augmentation of one form or another.

    And regarding “indeterminate” gender, the problem is not that these people’s gender is “indeterminate” as much as they have a *different* gender, depending on your *definition*. It’s a very subtle but important difference.

    And even more importantly, this means that the idea of *gender* is more than just phenotype, genotype and/or the like. I remember watching a discovery program on genetic abnormalities where a woman was born with half negroid and half caucasian genes.

    The problem was, the distribution wasn’t even. Her skin hair, face, etc was white, but her internal organs were mixed. Some of them carried black genes, and some were white. And in an unusual twist, her reproductive system was black.

    You can probably imagine where this is going… She ends up having a black kid with a white guy, who leaves her and promptly disowns the kid, and it takes a harrowing medical examination of the genes of her individual organs to discover the truth.

    Now the show could have all been a convenient lie. The medical researchers get fame and glory, and the woman gets her man back (or child support).

    Point is, there are many documented cases of this with visible phenotypical byproducts, like black/white checkered skin, etc. that are much more credible.

    So the question becomes, how many people are walking around with geno/phenotypical characteristics that say one thing, and opposing brain chemistry that says another? And so long as it harms no one else, who are we to tell then which ones to listen to?

    And while I agree that teens, in general, lack the experience and wisdom to deal with these things properly, right or wrong, there is something to be said for taking a position on this particular kind of dilemma early in life…

    If you look at things this way, I think you’ll realize that the ideal of convention/normalcy is a false God…


    And I have probably again put everyone to sleep. If it was a restful interlude, you are welcome. If not, my apologies… 😛

    tiki god

    Phyreblade: “too” many “quotes” around your various “words” can “dilute” your “message”.


    Phyreblade: All of your points were well made. we’ll have to agree to disagree at this point, but i think we can set this topic to rest happily.

    Of course you are right, its nearly impossible to live within society and exist in a natural state. Natural conventions have been modified to suit our current reality. There really is a huge spectrum though.
    Comparing preservatives in food, or hormones in the beef to gender manipulation is indeed difficult to correlate, but i understand your perspective.

    I’ll mention again that I wasn’t really viewing this topic from an individual perspective, but on a much grander scale. It doesn’t worry me that a single person chose to switch their gender, it worries me what this means for our future. As a species, we aren’t happy until we’ve modified, and augmented and botched everything within our influence. Whats the next step I ask you, and where will we finally draw the line, when something as important as gender is no longer sacred?

    Soon we’ll be cloning, genetically engineering our babies before birth, and ripping apart the very building blocks of life just to say we did. I love scientific progress, but there are reasons for certain things. Reasons that exceed our understanding. We’re slowly robbing the life stream of the mystique it once held.

    Thank you, at long last, for a civilized discussion. I’ll take away some of your wisdom, and hopefully vise versa?


    tiki god: LOL hey Tiki man, gimme a break, I mixed it up some, I used stars for *emphasis* as well as “quotes”, so at least my “dilution” was varied… LOL 😛

    MrDooves: Indeed, you also made valid points as well, so while I still think you are skiing, unrestrained, down a slippery slope, 🙂 yes, I will be taking your cautionary points with me, and we can put this baby to rest…

    Until the next excrement laden cumulonimbus rolls around…


    I love the internet. People write whole essays and try to sound smarter and more knowledgeable then anybody else. I’m surprised there was no “LOL TL;DR” comment after all that, hah.
    Also, – get over yourself. Internet smart-guy much?


    Mr. Dooves: Mystique? The only thing mystique really is is a thrill up the spine to spice up the unknown. Exploration is the only way to find out what lines were and weren’t meant to be crossed. Maybe horrible mistakes will be made. It doesn’t change the fact that the only way we’ll evolve is by going forward. And I guaran-damn-tee you that it’ll be worth it if we throw everything we have into the adventure.

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