Circular Logic

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Inspired to upload this due to the recent circular reasoning post.

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    How come it’s always the Bible? Why not the Torah? Or the Qur’an? Atheists always pick on the Christians/Catholics. Angry face.


    Because this is America dummy. No one here cares about the torah or Quran. And Neither push their believes on you on your way to work with pamphlets, or walks around begging for change saying “god bless”


    Quit your bitchin’. The Jews and Muslims will get there comeuppance too. We just go after the biggest source of bullshit first.


    Bleh, it’s a lot of bullshit, yes, but it only seems like bullshit if you don’t buy into it. Internal consistency is usually called genius.


    Its unfortunate that i have actually had this same conversation, theres no winning, so i dont try anymore.


    people that relay on the bible for their belief in a creator are stupid

    there are many other reasons to believe

    also, people deify the bible and make it like it is some awesome magical thing. they worship the thing and idolize it.

    the bible is not a book. it is a collection of works written by about 40 different authors (who didn’t know each other), in 3 languages, on 3 different continents over a period of about 1500 years-with a 400 year gap between the testaments.


    The scary part is….

    this is how they rationalize it..

    Alec Dalek

    Atheists always go after the most ignorant first. It’s the best place to start.


    Hey, Elepsky, rationalize something you truly believe in without begging the question.


    Caio, its called scientific fact. truth worth believing in. questions about truth can usually, at least thus far in 2008 be answered with scientific reason.


    The first mistake Atheists make: Not all Christians are like this. I was born and raised into a Catholic family, and I’ve never walked through Southstreet in Philly handing out pamphlets and wooden crosses shouting about how Jesus saves or “god bless”. To me, the Bible is a sacred book, much like the Qur’an is sacred to Muslims, or the Torah is to Jewish folk. Everyone is entitled to their religion, and I can rarely surf MCS without seeing a pic that belittles the Christian faith. The Bible was not written to be taken literally. There are fundamentalists who follow the Bible word for word, believing every tiny detail happened and is true. That is absolute horseshit. The Bible works were meant to be interpreted how the reader chose to interpret them, and to incorporate the writings into their daily lives. The 7 Deadly Sins are the most important, though modern Catholics don’t follow them very well. I respect everyone of every religion, if you’re Muslim, Atheist, Satanist, Pagan, whatever – I’m just saying take it easy MCS.


    Gunface: First, personal anecdotes are worthless. Second, you don’t know how the bible is supposed to be read. Until there is a good argument in any other direction the literalists have it right and you have it wrong. Moderate christians are pussies that are too scared to stick up for their religion. All you ever hear from moderate christians is vague reasons why they disbelieve 90% of the stuff that is in their sacred book. Grow some balls.


    What makes music good WHAT DOES SCIENCE SAY? Why is a book enjoyable? Or a movie? How do you make a marriage work? What should I do this Sunday? Provide scientific proof please.

    It disgusts me how people who laud the merits of science the most are those who would trust it as the fundamentalist trusts scripture. Science is nothing more than a series of refined methods for understanding natural phenomena.

    Soft science fails for the exact same reason hard science works: There was this cunt-ass psychologist named Julian Jaynes. He was considered a nutjob in his day but now he’s becoming increasingly more popular and trendy. Here’s his logic:

    My theory is that pre-civilized and early civilized people were schizophrenic. I define Schizophrenia in my own personal way. Any textual evidence that contradicts my theory is the result of later interpolations. How do I know something is the result of later interpolations? Because it contradicts my theory.

    I could go on, but this post is probably too long for anyone to read anyway.


    oh yeah in before someone calls me religious because I don’t accept the fact that science can exactly capture every element of the human experience. After all, if you don’t believe that science is a %100 complete closed book with nothing left to prove and no research left to do YOU MUST BE A RELIGIOUS IDIOT WHO BELIEVES IN GOD


    “First, personal anecdotes are worthless.”

    Personal anecdotes are the only way of communicating human experience. The only difference between a personal anecdote and observation is how well you can feign objectivity and how much heresay and degrees of separation you can cram in between you and the actual experience.


    Caio: Try to understand instead of arguing semantics. I did leave out “as arguments”, though.


    It’s not fair to be raised in a religion. It prevents you from looking at anything that conflicts with your religion with an open mind, and the way I see it, you’re filling that kids head with bullshit before they can even make decisions on their own.


    Ok, fine. How is the bible supposed to be read? Because there’s a cunt of a lot of competing theories on that. In fact, that little debate is about 2500 years old and moves only father away from consensus as time goes on.


    If you read a holy book (be it Bible, Torah, or Qur’an), and you get something out of it: great.

    If that something teaches you to be a better person: even better.

    If you rely only on that one book, and live your live solely on that one scripture: you are living in a small sphere of influence, and not allowing yourself to mature philosophically.

    Too many people refuse to expand their minds,refuse to step outside their comfort zones, refuse to listen to what other people have to say. This small-mindedness is one of the reasons Americans have become so maligned by so many people around the world.


    Amazingly enough, those same questions you asked are not provided in that book.

    Simple answer: because you (note:YOU, since every asshole on earth has an OPINION of their own) liked or wanted it.

    If you are going to pick an argument, at least give a valid one instead of purely subjective. Neither the various bibles nor science (any discipline) can give answers to questions related to personal desires.

    you may as well ask a crystal ball the same questions you’ve stated, as you’ll get just as far.


    Caio: If you pick and choose from the bible, you might as well NOT read the bible and pick up a book that has ideas that are more recent than those of the iron age.


    @exasperate: You could use that argument for anything. I could say “People shouldn’t be raised in the UK because it gives them an absolutely bias and distorted point of view on Bhutan. Ultimately one’s curiosity is a deciding factor in any form of knowledge.

    : You’re arguing my own point. Those were rhetorical questions.

    : wtf are you talking about? By the by, the Christian bible and the Talmud were completed some 500 years after the Mediterranean Iron Age had ended. The Quran centuries after that.


    Korinthian, I’d also like to say I admire your commitment to research and objectivity.


    Ciao: Thanks, I get admired a lot. Who said anything about the completion of the bible? I was talking in general about the ideas of the bible. The whole of the stuff found in it were not as late in time as you imply (especially the early, gory and genocidal stuff). But yet again you’re focusing on the wrong things. So really, argue the point or leave wikipedia out of this, mmkay?


    hooray for wheel


    Okey-dokey, Korinthian. Some of the early genealogies were probably written before the Jews knew how to tamper steel. You got me. What the fuck is your point?


    Whoa there, hot shot, no need to get feisty. My point is that you might as well read Harry Potter instead of the bible because not only is written by someone that is not a shepherder on drugs, it’s more moral, plus it doesn’t pretend to be non-fiction. And never forget that magic is cooler with a wand.


    No it’s different because religion prevents people from accepting scientific FACT (i.e. evolution >_>)


    Best part of all this madness is it proves that religion only divides the people. 1 point for the bible.


    : What a magical rhetor you are. How does that address my original point? Or are you only interested in maintaining the thin guise of discussion so you can spew your witty rewrites tired clichés?

    : Pope John Paul II encouraged people to study evolution. He said it was a different approach to understanding God or some such thing.

    I believe in evolution, and you do to. But tell me: Can you explain to me, in detail, why evolution is a FACT? How familiar are you with the science behind evolution?


    natural selection has more observed evidence so we choose to believe that one but it doesn’t mean that it is correct it could all very well be a trick being played by the devil which would be hilarious. but honestly does it really change your day that much whether you evolved from some slime or were made in gods image which has to poo and sleep for some strange reason.


    the Bible is not infallible!
    there are dates and names which do NOT match with what modern archeology and historians have dated.
    therefore this argument is invalid as a circular one.

    also please be more specific about the term evolution.
    evolution means change over time.
    micro biological evolution is fact
    MACRO biological evolution is what i think you are arguing about

    there is also memetic evolution on both macro and micro scales


    also would somebody perhaps the OP be able to tell me where it says that each of the statements in the pict are to be found in the Bible itself. As a avid reader of the text myself i dont believe i have run across these proofs yet.


    Caio: Didn’t know you had one. All I know is that you argue like a christian. You spout the age-old “science can’t answer why the Mona Lisa is pretty” line like someone argued the opposite. Evolution is fact because as far as evidence goes, it is almost unparalleled. Religion can’t come with any demonstrable truths that you can’t find elsewhere. The bible is just a book, and it is sad that adults actually believe the stuff they read in it. Indoctrination at a young age is usually the cause.


    quig: separating micro- and macro-evoltuion is what creationists/ID:ists do. Both have been demonstrated in a lab.


    “oh yeah in before someone calls me religious because I don’t accept the fact that science can exactly capture every element of the human experience.”

    I fucking called it. Also, “Hey guys what’s goin on in this thread.”


    Korinthian, maybe you should consider – just consider – looking past the throbbing intellect you assume you have, respecting other people’s beliefs and maybe – just maybe – having a drop of humility if you’re not quite smart enough to read a short internet thread before posting in it


    Circular reasoning is circular reasoning.


    Caio: Where did I say you were a christian? And you say I should learn how to read? Amusing. Don’t count on me to ask you to read my future, although it is cute that you try.


    my god, tl;dr


    : Well, on this thread, for one. For two on my stubmleupon profile. And don’t say it was another Korinthian, because he makes the same English mistakes as you.


    I never said it on this thread, and why would I assume otherwise on SU, with your lacking arguments (believe it or not, I don’t remember you from SU)?


    “It bears the question…”



    Some scientist believe Evolution to be fact; many realize that by definition, it is just a theory. This doesn’t mean that it is true/untrue. The evidence supports evolution, but at this point, for arguments sake, we cannot give an absolute answer to the evolution question. Most people who follow logic and reason can view the facts as they pile up and realize the conflicts that occur between Christianity and Science.

    No one’s opinion is wrong (although we all think our own is better than everyone else’s), because you can view all the evidence and “feel” differently about it. But to dispute scientific facts is quite absurd.

    I recommend this site: for articles and information on the bible as it relates to history. It was thrown together by a few professors from Colleges and Universities in Colorado and Wyoming. It isn’t updated very much these days because of funding, but the information on it still valid.


    Beef_hammer lost the argument the moment he said “just a theory”. And what about “No one’s opinion is wrong”? That’s dumb, and we all know it.


    Beef, your second paragraph contradicts your first. “It is just a theory… We cannot give an absolute answer / To dispute scientific facts is quite absurd.” Painfully. Also, neither make any sense.


    Evolution is an observed occurrence with an overwhelming amount of evidence to support it and is fact.
    Evolutionary theory is how scientists think evolution happens.

    I don’t really care what the Pope says anyway because all I see is religious people twisting their ambiguous holy books to fit science so they can keep holding onto their religion.


    You can say that God made evolution or something stupid like that. But everything on this earth has a natural explanation. People having sex, making children, getting sick, and dying. They all have natural explanations. But the explanations to these things were unknown at one point, but are now known. Wouldn’t it make sense that the origin of life would have a natural explanation as well? There’s NO reason for me to believe that a magical man made the universe.


    Gravity is JUST a theory. In reality its the devil holding our sins close to hell!.(what?!?!)

    We have what? 150 years of conclusive science on the subject of evolution. Pretty hard to argue against.
    Also if you say that the bible has been around for 2000 years – we have done more science in the last 150 years than mankind has over its entire existence put together.


    : the second paragraph doesn’t contradict the first if you understand the difference between fact and theory. Facts help us develop theories; theories themselves are not facts. As Exacerbate points out, theory is how scientists think something occurs based on observed factual evidence.

    : I’m just trying to be genial. I don’t like hearing other people’s opinions about shit I disagree with just as much as the next guy. Doesn’t mean that mine is right…

    : “I don’t really care what the Pope says anyway…” I agree.

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