this is not a difficult concept


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    StolidoriguynyokkinatedogErin Recent comment authors
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    Erin
    Member

    BUT IT COULD BE A PERSON, A MAGICAL PERSON, THEY COULD SAVE THE WORLD, MAN

    outlanderssc
    Member

    Or, they could be the antichrist –

    nicklogan
    Member

    or they could just take up space and do nothing important

    outlanderssc
    Member

    In the end, the sum of the potential outcomes equal out, so the prospect of a future role in society is not a valid argument.

    fracked again
    Member

    There are far more space takers than Mozarts. Scrape out the womb bugger.

    Andre666
    Member

    this matter has been closed. Not a human until the 24th week. Please stop bringing it up.

    TGGeko
    Member

    Clever, almost had me, but this analogies actually don’t properly compare. The previous examples don’t have the ability to self actualize their potential. The egg is not only unfertilized, but also broken. It’ can’t become a chicken. Silk needs to be woven by human hands, it can’t become a dress by itself. Same with the acorn, it needs the proper stimuli to germinate. The Zygote (which this isn’t actually a depiction of), will become a fully actualize without external influences. The mother doesn’t need to do anything for the fetus to grow. It is self actualizing, unlike the other examples.… Read more »

    gx5000
    Member

    It just don’t matter…really.
    Let the masses argue about when and how….
    The haves will do as they please as they have always…
    Meanwhile the poor and middle classes will fight over matters of faith and ethics ad finitum, until they depart this earth, and cause them no heed. WTG !

    borandi
    Member

    ” self actualize their potential ”

    Quite a lot of bollocks in those few words, right there.

    bgt
    Member

    I disagree with you on the acorn. Barring outside interference, I will develop into a tree. Also, do you honestly support the concept that DNA is the definition of humanity? Twins have the same DNA. If I kill one, is it only assault because that DNA is still alive? People with Down’s Syndrome techniclly don’t have human DNA. Is it OK to kill them? If you allow for some wiggle room to accomodate mutants with almost human DNA, then why not chimps? Their DNA is 99% human. Fruit flys are 60% human. Is swatting a fly a 60% murder? The… Read more »

    bstaples
    Member

    “If an organism can both percieve its environment, make judgments based on its observations, and recognizes its own existence in relation to those judgements, then it deserves to be protected.”

    tl;dr
    Fuck retards.

    outlanderssc
    Member

    Hard to argue with a well thought out and well presented argument, supported by irrefutable evidence.

    Too bad you haven’t got one

    bgt
    Member

    The mentally retarded do meet those requirments. I believe the term you are looking for is “anencephalic”.

    bstaples
    Member

    I used the term “retards” satirically.
    The point I tried to make is that your definition is too loose and can cover well past fetuses and onto currently “alive” children and adults who can’t tell the diffence between their filled colostomy bag and a box of puppies.

    origuy
    Member

    Bush?

    bgt
    Member

    No, you were using “retards” figuratively, and not very well, given the confusion it caused. I am well aware of how broad my definition is. I am also aware that dolphins and most apes fit into this definition. I stand by what I said when I called it the only sensible way to determine the humanity of a subject. I see the killing of infants being as morally wrong as the killing of goldfish. It’s not something I would advocate for, and it should not be performed against the will of the organism’s caretaker, but ultimately it’s not of any… Read more »

    bstaples
    Member

    The analogies don’t work at all. You wouldn’t show a picture of a chicken egg incubating and say it’s not a chicken. Showing a broken into egg would better fit with an already aborted baby. You sick bastard, you. Plus as Geko brought out, silk doesn’t inherently become a dress, so comparing it to something that does inherently become another thing doesnt work either. finally, that seed is “living” in as much as a seed can effect and take from it’s environment for the purpose of “growth”. If you yank it out from the soil with a coat hanger and… Read more »

    WistfulD
    Member

    Come back when you are sober enough to make a coherent argument, and maybe we’ll take you seriously.

    P.S.: referencing coat hangers is an argument FOR legal abortions, since the coat hangers only come out when abortion is illegal. Nice job fucking up your own argument there, moron.

    bstaples
    Member

    1. Nice challenge Troll. Point out what was incoherent and i’ll draw your simple-ass a map. I’ll even use crayons if you want. 2. What thread are you reading? We aren’t arguing legality of the abortion concept, therefore the methods used to abort the fetus isn’t on trial here. It doesn’t matter if you use surgery, a flight of steps, coat hangers or a falcon punch. What matters is whether i’m right in thinking that I can do it because it’s only been 23 weeks since I got your useless sister pregnant and the result in her stomach isn’t a… Read more »

    outlanderssc
    Member

    >The Zygote … will become a fully actualize without external influences.

    Sorry, wrong – it will require considerable external influence – support, food, climate control and defense for 9 months or so to fully actualize. Even then it will not be able to live independently for several years.

    >it had the exact same genetic code as before.

    It will have the same genetic code after it’s dead as well – scientists have found DNA from Neanderthals that is still viable.
    So by your statement, it doesn’t matter if we kill it or not as the DNA remains the same.

    Insanely Rational
    Member

    A newborn baby isn’t a “person” either. It’s just a tiny weird human-like thing that can only do five things: breathe, eat, poop, sleep and cry, and all those things it does as mechanically as a phone that rings when a call comes in. A newborn baby doesn’t have a mind. It doesn’t have feelings. It just cries a lot. An 8-year-old dog is more “human” than any newborn baby, yet killing a dog isn’t anywhere near as “evil” as killing a newborn baby. All a newborn baby has is the “potential” to become a person. It isn’t a person… Read more »

    Ruski
    Member

    Yea except for the part where you conveniently forget that a newborn baby unlike a zygote can feel pain and distress and express this and in some way try to protect itself.

    A cluster of cell non specific ones at that can’t do shit but ether continue developing into something (possibly) useful or just die depending on external factors.

    Granted we could avoid this entire debate in the first place and just ban stupid people from breeding.

    fracked again
    Member

    That zygote has far less than a 50% chance of reaching the baby stage. First, it has to implant in the uterine lining. Next, it has to not miscarry, which happens in half of all pregnancies. Its a parasite until it gets out of the body.

    origuy
    Member

    Its a parasite until (18 years after )it gets out of the body.

    natedog
    Member

    Let our powers combine. Egg! Acorn! Worm! Conception!
    Go, Planned Parenthood!
    By your powers combined, I am Captain Abortion!

    GreedyDrunk
    Member

    I am just going to let the woman decide what to do with her own body on an individual case by case basis.

    Ruski
    Member

    Yes they have that. It’s called legalising abortion!

    natedog
    Member

    the man should totally have some say in the matter

    but no one cares about that. FUCK YOU WHORE FOR KILLING MY CHILD

    origuy
    Member

    You have to admit that it was in her body. If you were caring it, then you could have decided whether or not to carry it to term. But until men carry, it’s still a woman’s decision.

    If she didn’t want it, but you did, would you have taken care of the child for the next 18 years all by your self?

    natedog
    Member

    LET ME CLARIFY BY SAYING I AM PRO CHOICE yes, i would take care of it for far more than 18 years. and yes, it is her body, and in cases of life or death, the man shouldnt have a say. but to say that a man has no say over keeping the baby is really discriminatory and total bullshit. what if a woman wants to keep her baby but is forced to have an abortion? in my view, it is the same thing. if a man doesnt want the baby, but the woman has it anyway, should he be… Read more »

    bgt
    Member

    As much as I would like to support you in giving the father a say, I can’t see any way to go about implementing it. A quick glance at daytime talk shows is enough to prove that the woman doesn’t always know who the father is. Barring woman from getting abortions without the consent of the father would keep many of the women who most need an abortion from getting one. Add a caveat to the law where the woman can say she doesn’t know who the father is and anyone can just lie their way into the clinic. I… Read more »

    nyoki
    Member

    Not gonna happen, nor should it. Not everything is fair. There’s no way to make this fair. At this point, male contraception is available to everyone. No protection > baby > pay up.

    natedog
    Member

    what if you were made to have an abortion against your consent?

    how is that any different than a man being forced to just accept that a woman wants an abortion against his will?

    and “No protection > baby > pay up”, how does this apply to women? a woman can just decide to have an abortion, and not have to “pay up”. why can’t a man just decide that a woman should have an abortion without her consent? oh, it’s her body, right? BIGGEST CHICKENSHIT COP OUT EVER.

    nyoki
    Member

    They “Guy” ain’t pregnant. That is the difference and it’s a huge one, the only significant one. The foetus is either a person (w/ all the rights associated w/ that), or it’s not (w/ none of those same rights). If it is not a person, then you have no claim over what I do w/ IT.

    natedog
    Member

    im not coming at this from whether or not a fetus is a person. i’m coming at this from my view, the view of a father. and regardless of whether or not the thing is a person, there is the fact that 1/2 of the genetic material is mine. genetic material that is mine is part of MY body. to say i have NO claim at all over it is really kinda harsh. if i put my dick in you, that does not mean the dick is no longer my body. so what gives you the right to make decisions… Read more »

    nyoki
    Member

    You kept your dick, but left the sperm. You can say you’re coming at this from any POV you want, doesn’t matter, biologically the foetus is in the mother and not the father. You have get past this idea that things are fair, biologically, there’s no such thing. It’s not the father’s life that is put to the test by carrying and birthing a baby. I understand your feelings, and I would never do such a thing w/out consultation, but in the end, the decision isn’t yours to make.

    natedog
    Member

    there is a way to make it fair. the woman should have to have the baby and give it to the man to raise. and then she should have to pay child support.

    and if you are honest and not biased, you will agree that this is exactly fair.

    nyoki
    Member

    Carrying a child for 9 months, giving birth, then paying child support is hardly the same thing as getting someone pregnant, waiting around for 9 months, then paying child support.

    natedog
    Member

    At this point, female contraception is available to everyone. No protection > baby > pay up.

    nyoki
    Member

    Ah, but women do have another option. How do you feel about the day after pill? Does it bother you that she may be aborting a foetus w/o knowing whether or not she is actually pregnant?

    nyoki
    Member

    Here’s the thing. If you’re pro-choice, you agree that the zygote/foetus is not a person, not yet human life. If it is not a person, then only one person has a say as to what is to be done w/ it, and that’s the woman.
    I understand your feelings though. When I discovered I was pregnant, I had some tough choices to make. Hubby and I went back and forth a few times. Finally I decided to give it a go.

    natedog
    Member

    the only reason i am pro-choice is that it is not my place to make nyokki’s decision. even though i am pro-chioce, i beleive the right choice in most cases would be not to kill it. but it is not my place to make your decision. HOWEVER, i never put a baby inside you, lol. but let’s say i get my wife pregnant. she can go have an abortion without even notifying me. and that is srsly fucked up. as far as fairness, what about applying that to other civil rights? sorry, nigger. Not gonna happen, nor should it. Not… Read more »

    ItalianDragn
    Member

    I keep getting frustrated by the “Its someone else’s responsibility” mentality that is so pervasive. talking to my grandfather about how he was raised, and how he raised his sons to take responsibility for their own actions really makes me think that so much of the shit we are dealing with comes from that change. its crippling our economy, and loads of stupid lawsuits… and face it… what is the definition of abort? it means to stop, as in abortion is stopping… abort a baby, cancel a baby… kill a baby… same thing… your stopping its life. SEX MAKES BABIES!!!

    nyoki
    Member

    It’s biology and there’s nothing fair about it. When you can become pregnant and give birth, you’ll have the same choices. I don’t think I could ever make a decision like that w/out hubby. It would devastate him if I did, I think. In the end though, the choice is solely mine.

    nyoki
    Member

    Also, if your wife is getting pregnant then aborting w/out telling you, you’ve got some marital issues to work out before deciding to raise another child.

    natedog
    Member

    naw, that didnt happen… i used that as an example. i’m not saying she did, i am saying that it happens. and with the millions of abortions that have been done, i have to believe that even a small percentage of abortions done behind a husband/baby daddy’s back would equal a lot of actual abortions done behind a husband/baby daddy’s back

    also, if my wife got pregnant then aborted w/out telling me, then that could just as well be attributed to the woman being a cold hearted cunt as it can be to marital issues

    nyoki
    Member

    I know you weren’t talking about yourself. I was just keeping it in person.

    natedog
    Member

    >It’s biology and there’s nothing fair about it.

    you dont even see your bias on this issue. the above statement is good enough for the man to just have to deal with, but turn it around on the woman, and is it still good enough for you as a woman to just have to deal with it?

    you say, “Carrying a child for 9 months, giving birth, then paying child support is hardly the same thing as getting someone pregnant, waiting around for 9 months, then paying child support.”

    well, tough shit, but it’s biology and there’s nothing fair about it.

    nyoki
    Member

    Ah, I do see how biased I am. Like I said, it’s not fair. It sucks sometimes. Is it fair that you will always be stronger than me? Is it fair that you can have an orgasm in 5 minutes flat? Is it fair that I have to bear all the risks of childbirth, while you get to complain about my mood changes? It is what it is.

    Puulaahi
    Member

    Just think of all the sperm that have died.

    absent
    Member

    “I have wiped entire civilizations off of my chest, with a grey gym sock….. Entire nations have flaked and crusted in the hair around my navel….. I have tossed universes, in my underpants, while napping. That is special.” – Bill Hicks

    Erin
    Member

    don’t forget eggs that have been daintily disposed of on a tampon

    deuce
    Member

    As Bill Hicks said, “You’re not a human being until you’re in my phone book.”

    Halon50
    Member

    Ceci n’est pas un website.

    NoOneInParticular
    Member

    It’s sad, but the best arguments made here have been marked down the most. 🙁

    One thing to consider: countries pay workman’s compensation for injury because of the POTENTIAL a person had to work. For all you know, they could have quit the next day, so why pay? Because they were denied their potential. Arguing against the potential of a fetus is the same as arguing against workman’s comp.

    natedog
    Member

    >this is not a difficult conception

    mikoyangurevich15
    Member

    My ex wife was several weeks pregnant and literally on the table preparing for an abortion.Physicians had told her that because she had been taking lithium carbonate for years that there was an overwhelming chance that the baby would have lethal heart problem.Statistically that is correct.However,one pediatric heart specialist reviewed the findings and at the last moment pleaded with her to not abort.I`m not at all religious but I thank god for that womans intervention every time that I look upon her now beautiful 20 year old face.Don`t talk about “potentials” to me.This was a miracle.

    Erin
    Member

    no dude, that’s a combination of luck and life.

    mikoyangurevich15
    Member

    Whatever you care to call it.However you want to phrase it.I,and all my family are thankful that it did`nt happen.And no,I`m not an anti-abortion fanatic.Nor am I pro-abortion,either.I simply don`t have the right to decide for others.

    TrAyVon'S GhOSt, nuCca
    Member

    And now I can have sex with that girl and she can get an abortion of her own.

    Its called the circle of abortion.

    I shall write this poem.

    natedog
    Member

    fucking miracles

    asymon
    Member

    sometimes it’s just impossible to resist
    🙂

    origuy
    Member

    Then the two of you made the right ‘choice’.

    Erin
    Member

    Fuck anyone who is against abortion due to fetus ‘potential’. Ha. What planet are you on? Any slut in a trailer park with her ankles around her ears can have a baby, and if someone doesn’t want to have a child, then they fucking shouldn’t. If you really gave a shit about the fetus ‘potential’ you would want it to be born into a loving, intelligent family with the financial support to ensure they go to the best schools, have plenty of activities to fill up their time and make sure they don’t get into trouble to maximise their potential,… Read more »

    dieAntagonista
    Guest

    >Existing isn’t a life. Guess what? Sometimes love aint enough to ensure a good life, so why isn’t anyone battling to save the kids that already exist?

    *applauds*

    Even though I don’t agree with you on every subject, which is good, your strong opinions keep coming out in high concentrations of AWESOME.

    origuy
    Member

    To add to that, it never ceases to amaze me that the very same people that want to outlaw abortion, are the same ones that want to cut welfare funding. They care about the child right up until it’s born, then say fuck them.

    Oh and some of them are FOR capital punishment. You can’t kill an unborn child, but you can kill a ‘potential’ human after they are born. One that even might be ‘potentially’ innocent?

    asymon
    Member

    please, don’t generalize like that, you are hurting me

    origuy
    Member

    You’re right. I should have said ‘Politician’ because we all know that they aren’t people.

    All sarcasm aside, I’ll admit to generalizing, if you’ll admit that SOME of them do. We can just chalk it down to a typo.

    ItalianDragn
    Member

    My best friend was recommended to be aborted because his mom was still in HS and the guy was an asshole. Well she didn’t.. and then she busted her ass through college and now owns her own business and her son went on to be a Marine to serve this country and after finishing his service is married with a little girl and going back to school while working… I thank God that she didn’t abort him. Him growing up w/out a dad helped me get through losing my dad to a brain aneurysm when I was 15. (now 27)… Read more »

    Erin
    Member

    go sit in the corner

    nyoki
    Member

    Your point?

    origuy
    Member

    For starters: I’m Pro-choice, and if I was a woman (No jokes) I would ‘chose’ to have the baby.

    Lovely stories, but not useful for the discussion. For every archetypal anecdote for a position, there exists at least one against. I will not put forth general or specific one, but I will state that they exist. You can not win a debate with anecdotes.

    dogsurfer
    Member

    Do you think the world population exceeds its ability to sustain itself? If so,
    what do you think of logarithmic percentage tax increases for additional children beyond one?

    TGGeko
    Member

    No it doesn’t. Our food output has increased with the population ever since the birth of agriculture.

    ItalianDragn
    Member

    so true, we throw away so much food. I am actually part of a program to get the trash meat from wall-Mart to feed to dogs

    Deeker
    Member
    Deeker

    Let me guess: inspired by the League of Reason? More people need to be exposed to this stuff.

    www.leagueofreason.co.uk/
    www.youtube.com/user/LeagueOfReasonTV

    TrAyVon'S GhOSt, nuCca
    Member

    That there is a sperm hitting an egg. The picture should be a fetus ya dumbshits. You don’t abort a sperm hitting an egg. You abort a little jelly bean looking thing. Well human looking jelly bean.

    So this picture is incorrect and misleading.

    That picture is clearly a Snowball btw

    comment image

    asymon
    Member

    every sperm is sacred
    every sperm is saint

    absent
    Member

    if a sperm is wasted,
    god gets quite irate.

    nyoki
    Member

    Damn you! Every time someone posts a MP sketch, I’m on youtube for a 1/2 hour.

    Stolid
    Member

    Well, if it grows up and resists arrest then gets shot in the back and dies… it deserved it.

    origuy
    Member

    Abortion = Preemptive Capital Punishment? (Well there goes the ‘potential’ argument!)

    Stolid
    Member

    Dude… You clearly missed the reference. 2 AND A HALF YEARS AGO.



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