church and state

church and state


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    Cruddychicken
    Member

    Seperation, damnit.

    natedog
    Member

    christians and the white male are the new minorities

    twosticks
    Member

    Not until around 2040. And not even christians. The largest growing demographic are hispanics which are typically devout Roman Catholics.

    White males will live, life will go on.

    natedog
    Member

    i meant that not in a population sense, but in the sense that christians and white guys are currently the most discriminated against segment of our society

    nyoki
    Member

    Yeah, I feel really bad for white christian men. Life really sux for you now. I’m glad I’m not discriminated against like that.

    camusapprentice
    Member

    @nyokki: No. Its more a point that EVERYONE is discriminated against and EVERYONE discriminates. And white people used to have the market cornered, but we dont anymore. White people have valid claims just as much as any other minority, the only difference is whenever a white person brings light to it, all we get back is “boo hoo, the white person is being discriminated against”… well maybe we should put you all back in chains, because they (those who came after the predominant white power mindset. Those who live on today. Those who proved that most of us just want… Read more »

    nyoki
    Member

    @camusapprentice:

    I say why dont we ALL just stop with this bull and be AMERICANS

    That was my point…sheesh (‘cept replace Americans w/ people).

    camusapprentice
    Member

    @nyokki: Sweet. Honestly, that is a conversation that I had a least a million times from a million angles during the election.

    And I agree with your amendment. Im a little ashamed of myself, I sound like a Merrican

    ieattime20
    Member

    To get to a level playing field, someone has to step down a notch. Welcome to the middle of the ladder, White Christian Males. If you’re not going to be rude about having to be taken down off your pedestal, we might all just be able to get along.

    Make a big deal about it and, well, you’ll make it worse for yourselves.

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    @natedog: You’re right. That’s why all the politician have to pretend to be atheists to get elected. Or how churches are forced to teach evolution. Or how whites are always get harassed by the police or “randomly” selected from screening at airports.

    the3g_ipwn
    Member

    @camusapprentice:
    “Im a little ashamed of myself, I sound like a Merrican.”

    So, it’s still ok to hate rednecks, right?

    Puulaahi
    Member

    Fuck the Church
    Fuck the State
    And Fuck the Police!

    dieAntagonista
    Guest

    This is the only problem with religion and people that can be solved easily. Separate church from state and BAM life will be more beautiful for everybody. And also, if you’re against this, then you have no business talking about respecting other people’s beliefs because you’re obviously not doing it. @reboot: Truth. @the3g_ipwn: Oh so when they say Merrican that means redneck? I don’t understand what’s with you Americans. You always either are rednecks or you hate them. If my understanding is correct, there are a lot of different rednecks. They’re not all the same. I know one on youtube… Read more »

    ieattime20
    Member

    If you are at all religious, you should very much want the seperation of church and state. State, as defined as the political entity in charge of legislation, executive enforcement, and justice, has this uncanny habit to tarnish just about anything and everything it gets its hands on. This includes religion. This is particularly apparent in the creationist argument to teach creationism in school. BESIDES the fact that creationism is not a science, I’d like to remind everyone in America that your primary and secondary school utterly failed to represent [i]evolution[/i] to you, unless you went to a private school.… Read more »

    Puulaahi
    Member

    I have no problem with religion. But if a religion pushes their beliefs on me when I am not interested, naturally I am going to push back.

    America comes off as an Evangelical nation, but we aren’t one. Christians simply put themselves in the limelight because they are seeking political power to force America into thinking one way. America is made up of people that have many beliefs, religions and individual ideals. Hell, most of the forefathers left England because of Church & State and the prosecution that went with it. As well as many US Citizens themselves.

    the3g_ipwn
    Member

    @dieAntagonista: America in the redneck accent is pronounced: MUR-ri-ca. Hence the term. “All men are created equal” is the biggest line of bullshit ever swallowed by the American public. It lends to the falacy that one individual can’t be bad because that would make the equation un-true. I mean, if we’re all equal, and one of us is bad, then we are all bad. Know I know that this isn’t what Lincoln ment, but none the less, the PC movement and decline of personal responsibility has roots in that statement. Lincoln merely suggested that we should all be treated fairly.… Read more »

    ieattime20
    Member

    @the3g_ipwn: I think the point of the Civil Rights movement, is that when a person is unequal due to [i]heredity[/i], or something they have absolutely no means to have ever affected or controlled, they deserve special treatment to compensate for that. Why? I mean, it’s really a lot of people’s sense of justice. Someone with one leg who never had it from birth deserves special treatment just to be able to compete with us two-leggers.

    the3g_ipwn
    Member

    @ieattime20: No, “equal” is equal all the time. “Fair” is fair all the time. Not just when it suits a particular person or group. That just wouldn’t be fair, or equal, for that matter. Which is pretty much where we are right now.

    dieAntagonista
    Guest

    @the3g_ipwn: Ah thanks for the clarification.

    Nice analysis and I totally agree with you.

    nyoki
    Member

    @the3g_ipwn: Equal = Politically Equal. No, “equal” is equal all the time. “Fair” is fair all the time No it’s not. Equal can mean different things in different situations. Are we all born equally intelligent? No, of course not. Are we all born w/ the same physical abilities? No, of course not. All men are created equal means that one can not discriminate for/against an individual based on race, color, creed, ethnicity, religion (or lack of), etc…We are not born equal. but we are made politically equal by our gov’t. It’s not such a radical idea. Part of the problem… Read more »

    the3g_ipwn
    Member

    @nyokki: How can you disagree with me by simply rephrasing everything I just wrote? Try reading more than the last comment in a thread.

    the3g_ipwn
    Member

    @nyokki: NO! Equal=Equal! Gosh didn’t you watch Sesame Street! If it is only equal when it suits your ideas, then it kind of defeats the purpose.

    nyoki
    Member

    @the3g_ipwn: Yeah right…because words have only 1 meaning, and circumstances never change and 1 word w/ 1 meaning covers it all. There’s no subtlety or nuance to the English language and politics is black and white and everything would work out if everyone would just listen to you. You can’t make your point if your gonna point out that I shouldn’t read only one comment, rather than all of them (btw I did read the whole thread, always do) and then accuse me of rephrasing everything you said. If 1+3=0, then equal can depend on circumstances, which means that what… Read more »

    Phyreblade
    Member

    @nyokki: wait… 1+3=0…?!? Sonofa…! You mean they lied to me in math class all those years?

    the3g_ipwn
    Member

    @nyokki: 1+3=4. Always has. Always will. No matter the circumstances. It’s what we call a mathematical certainty. I guess that answers the Sesame Street question.

    Your actually making my whole point. If equal is only equal under a certian persons rules, then it is invariably un equal. You see, BECAUSE we are NOT all equal, one cannot decide what is equal, or fair, if you will, for another. So try as we may:

    YOU+ME
    —— = no solution
    SOCIETY

    If we were all equal, meaning all variables the same, life WOULD be as simple as 1+3=4.(it does equal 4, I googled it)

    jascas_
    Member

    I know I’m a bit late on this, but isn’t the phrase “created equal”, meaning that fundamentally and legally, we’re all equal to begin with, then circumstances can change based on our actions? For example me and some random dude in, say, Vermont, are the same as we just go about living our lives as we were created (we began as) equals. Then ol’ dude robs a bank & kills a person and he is no longer considered an equal (he loses his right to freedom, etc etc). That’s the point of the whole rights thing is that if we… Read more »

    jascas_
    Member

    Oh, and as far as all the comments about racism and who has it better than others, etc…I don’t agree or disagree fully with most of the contributors here. I agree that the white male is the most discriminated against in our (the American, that is) legal system as almost every facet of the American society. Perceived differences amongst different races and cultures (which have unarguably diminished TREMENDOUSLY since the 20th century when the trend of these laws was begun) have caused advantages for every race other than Caucasian and also for the female sex. Special benefits and organizations fill… Read more »

    natedog
    Member

    www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081209/NEWS01/312099150

    Tuesday, December 9, 2008
    Mom gets prison for sex with teen
    Judge admits double standard in issuing 2- to 4-year sentence
    By ALBERT McKEON, Staff Writer

    NASHUA – Acknowledging that a societal double standard exists, a judge on Monday sentenced a 38-year-old woman to a two- to four-year prison sentence for sexually assaulting a teenage boy.

    “Like it or not, an underage boy having sex with an older-aged girl is viewed differently than the other way around,” Hillsborough County Superior Court Judge Robert Lynn said before handing down the sentence on Nashua resident Robin Mowery.

    nyoki
    Member

    @the3g_ipwn: 1+3=0 is true under the right conditions. It’s your inability to see why/how this is so that leads to you to not even see other options. There’s a lot of color between black and white and few things (related to people) fall in to one or the other exclusively.

    the3g_ipwn
    Member

    @nyokki: Please explain under which circumstances 1+3=0 becomes a true equation. Don’t you get it? The diversity you speak of is exactly why I say everyone is not equal. All we, as deceint people, can do is try to treat everyone equally. Regardless of the circumstances. These “circumstances” are what defines the class system, what we use to stereotype different races, culture, and religions. You have to view people through blinders. If you look at the circumstance, you become an instrument of division. Basically dividing people into groups based on their circumstances. Then you end up with what we have… Read more »

    ieattime20
    Member

    Man, you must really like 1984. When you’re talking about discrimination in the legal system, or the electoral system, that’s the only kind of equality we can deal with. Don’t tell me there’s only one kind of equal. There’s politically equal, equal in height, in gender, skin color, amount of money made, etc. It’s the equality in respective fields we must deal with. We agree as a society that people are not physically equal, and thus make special concessions and considerations for those in your physical “group C”. This works well because it’s not a zero-sum game, like economics is.… Read more »

    the3g_ipwn
    Member

    I’ve never seen 1984. I might like it though. Everything you just said is bullshit. “In the same way, people are not economically equal, which as I said above, is a far trickier problem to solve.” First of all, I have been saying this whole muthaflippin time that we are not equal. Jesusgoddamnmotherfuckingchrist where did you two learn to read? Secondly, it’s not only tricky to create a world where everyone is equal. It is absolutely impossible. That is the core principal of communism, and, ironicly, the core reason why communism doesn’t work. When everyone is equal, there is no… Read more »

    ieattime20
    Member

    The core idea of communism is power reserved for the means of production, i.e. the laborers, instead of residing in the people who don’t actually produce, i.e. the boardsmen. Equal distribution and production is just one facet of that. As much as you’d hate to, read up on your Karl Marx. He’s definitely not right (this is provable) but his ideas are worth consideration and at the very least drastically inform the opposite position. I know you said people are not equal. But you’re also saying nothing should be done to remedy this, because your conception of equal is too… Read more »

    the3g_ipwn
    Member

    “statistically black people are born poor.” That makes them a victim of numbers and nothing else. Black people, statistically, are poor in EVERY society. Not just here in America. Now, before you call me a racist, be sure to try to dispute that fact. I wish rompSku were here to back me up. As an African, born and raised in Africa, he would tell you that black people, for the majority, are inheritently lazy, not poor. When you blame our system, our laws and our society for something it is not responsible for, it’s no wonder you can’t reach a… Read more »

    ieattime20
    Member

    Sure, the fact that they have a genetic predisposition to laziness does explain them remaining poor. But how does that explain the numbers of black men and women (statistically small compared to the rest of the group as they are) who are avidly hard workers, or the statistic disparity of black men and women who work menial labor jobs I would die before I finished, being a ‘hardy and hard working’ white man? Isolating a gene is hard work dude. Good luck with that. A far more likely explanation is that the Apartheid and several other horrors visited upon the… Read more »

    the3g_ipwn
    Member

    @ieattime20: You’re plagerising what some asshole who thinks he knows something has written in some some book. So you dabbled in history and psycology your first year in college while deciding on a major. Good for you. That doesn’t mean you know anything. I’ll let you in on a little secret. You learn FACT in highschool. In college you study the OPPINIONS of other people in hopes that you will learn to make up your own damn mind. I see it hasn’t worked. You must have a Masters. Either way, the mere fact that you can recite a chapter here… Read more »

    ieattime20
    Member

    Your pretention is amazing. The fact that you think ignorance of history can provide you anything, any kind of information, is startling. Since when has knowing anything about a subject made someone less qualified to talk about it? If you’re happy parading ignorance as a virtue, then there’s nothing more to say to you. As a matter of course, you don’t learn facts in high school, not in the sense of college, you learn about isolated incidents flavored with opinions, like the fact that Christopher Columbus discovered the world was round (wrong) or that he was anything but a nasty… Read more »

    dieAntagonista
    Guest

    There is no scientific evidence that black people are by nature more lazy than any other race. To prove that you would have to show me at least one peer-reviewed source. (Do i really have to mention the athletic black stereotype who runs faster than any white person?) I’ll tell you what it is though, when people grow up in the same neighbourhoods, talking to the same people, living the same lifestyle, chances are they will turn out exactly like the people before them. This has nothing to do with race, and little with genetics. The majority of black people… Read more »

    ieattime20
    Member

    @dieAntagonista: No, to an extent, you’re absolutely right. But statistics, especially statistics over a long period of time (knocking out the chance of high-variance randomness), do imply the existence of cause. Unless you find some sort of link between race and economic performance (as a factor of that race inherently, sort of like the ‘laziness’ example) you have to conclude that there is an ‘unnatural’ economic bias and, presumably, figure out what the cause of that bias is. My posit is that it’s because poor propagates poor, for the reasons you state and many others. Black people started out behind… Read more »

    dieAntagonista
    Guest

    @ieattime20:
    Yes I agree. But I’m still not sure about this part ‘Black people started out behind in the race’. I’m not so sure about the significance of this.
    You have also to consider the fact that there are only very few 100% black people in America. They’re for the most part all mixed. White, Mexican, Indian and so on.
    If you really want to get into genetics and all that.
    But yeah either way, we’re definitely on the same page.

    nyoki
    Member

    @the3g_ipwn: 1+3=0 if your using mod4 (or base4) instead of mod10. There are certainly uses for working in other than mod10. In computer programming, we use mod2 (binary) and mod16 (hexadecimal).
    So, depending on what you want to do, different circumstances lead to different ways of working w/ the same numbers.
    The simple way is almost always the brutal way and I really do think that we can find ways to accomplish political equality w/out leaving people in the dirt. Nuances are very real and should be payed attention to.

    Phyreblade
    Member

    @nyokki: Did you mean modulo 4, or base4? In a quarternary numeral system I believe 1+3=10. But I’m being anal retentive…

    I agree with your premise. Even with something as universal/ ubiquitous as mathematics, not everyone works in the same base.

    People tend to forget that equality means different things to different people. The devil is indeed in the details…

    nyoki
    Member

    @Phyreblade: Yeah I know. I thought I was making it easier by stating it that way, like 1+1=0, figuring people would catch on.

    nyoki
    Member

    This is why we have to make people politically equal, because if we do not, there will be people who live in filth and poverty. This can and does happen in America too. Staten Island, NY was home to Willowbrook State School, a psychiatric hospital/institution for the mentally unstable and retarded, basically they were dumped there and never seen by the public. It was finally closed down after Geraldo Rivera did an expose on it (It’s what catapulted him to stardom).

    nyoki
    Member

    Oops, forgot the link to Willowbrook.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willowbrook_State_School

    natedog
    Member

    AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA AFRICA… Read more »

    nyoki
    Member

    @natedog: Why didn’t I think of that?



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