i can hasz bayleout nao?


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    Paul_Is_Drunk
    Member

    To start the inevitable internet argument:

    Retirement funds are tied to Wall St.
    No liquidity means no college funds, car loans, or even buying a shiny new PS3.
    A bad economy is bad for everyone.

    The best part is that Republican were hoping that Democrats would pass the bill unilaterally, so that they could use public resentment against the people who did pass the bill (in this theory: Democrats). Instead it backfired, and now they’re to blame for a new 7 year record stock plunge. Awesome!

    mikoyangurevich15
    Member

    Fail and AIDS.

    deuce
    Member

    @Paul: The economy may be fucked, but at least the Republicans put their party first!

    Elepski
    Member

    I want the bill to pass.. but the current version is not clear enough…

    RSIxidor
    Member

    Come on Duece, its much deeper than that.

    There wasn’t enough Democratic support for this bill either, it just wasn’t going to pass.

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    @Paul You’re right about all those things, but buying bad investments isn’t going to solve any fundamental problems. Housing pricing are (still) way out of wack with actual value and so all housing related investments are going to suck until that is fixed. Government should be promoting sectors of the economy that have potential for actual growth instead of buying into a ponzi scheme. If you need to go into debt to pay for college, a car or PS3, maybe you shouldn’t be buying those things. I know its anti-American of me not to have 3 times my salary in… Read more »

    Caio
    Member

    “The best part is that Republican were hoping that Democrats would pass the bill unilaterally, so that they could use public resentment against the people who did pass the bill (in this theory: Democrats).” Not quite, homeboy. As much as I hate to admit it, the Republicans in DC are a lot more fractured and factioned than anyone – republican or democrat – would like to admit. Half the Republican congressmen said they’d make an effort to fuck up any major bailout that Bush or McCain back, back at the conference at the beginning of September. Presumably these are the… Read more »

    Paul_Is_Drunk
    Member

    @reboot I’m not only an American college graduate, an adequate amount of my income comes from the housing market. Yes, housing prices are crap. (Thank *insert your deity here* that they’re still decent in Portland). As for “going into debt to go into college…” I’m going to say a giant FUCK YOU unless you agree that college education should be subsidized like in a majority of the other industrialized nations. I say that, because if you aren’t for that, you are saying either be born rich or stay out of the white collar job market. Sure, you could say be… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    @Paul
    I’m not rich (grew up in a trailer park) and I haven’t paid more than a couple grand for college total. That’s two bachelor’s and masters degree, so far. There’s state schools, scholarships, military and a ton of options other than going into debt. Even major schools like Harvard and MIT will adjust or waive tuition if you can’t afford it.

    Paul_Is_Drunk
    Member

    @reboot
    My state school education cost me roughly $50,000 in debt. The average for full scholarships in a state school is 16%. Military service is for an indefinite period of time while we have 2 wars going and not enough soldiers. The choices for most of us that have done it are either student loans or be born rich.

    Ahhhhhh… I feel much better now that I got to rage.

    ack
    Member

    As that I no longer live in the US let me be the first to say “burn”. As in “burn, muthafukkaz burn”.

    In grade school I figured out that there are some people that you just don’t borrow your shit to. Sub-prime lending is not much different… unless the cash your loaning doesn’t belong to you. Then its all good and fun.

    Karma is bitch.

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    @Paul
    So that’s $50,000 divided by 4 years. Let’s say you get a half scholarship (you should be able to do that much, right?). That’s $520 a month. Flip some burgers.
    My point is that even if lending does tighten up, its not going to bring the sky raining down on us. People may have to delay buying a new car or downsize their McMansion, but those who work and save will still get by.

    ack
    Member

    As for college… I will quote an idiot, who I respect for his brutal honesty.

    “If you’re smart enough to go to college, your smart enough to figure out a way to pay for it.”

    If that involves joining the military – suck it up and do it, pussy.

    MrDooves
    Member

    I think Canada might need to strengthen our presence at the border. You chumps looking for another country to destroy? Try Mexico.

    Paul_Is_Drunk
    Member

    @reboot o_O Did you really go to college? The percentage of students that go to a state school without any scholarship is over 50%. As for “flip some burgers.” I fought wildlife forest fires 14+ hours a day in 12 day shifts during summers protecting people to pay off my loans. At any rate, I did it. The point isn’t me or what I did. The point is that a majority of students have to take out loans of some sort to go to college. As for the economy, what do you think businesses are going to do without liquidity… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    @paul What I meant by “flip some burgers” is that people who work will still be able to afford college, even if its just flipping burgers. Your example of fighting fires supports that. If businesses can jobs 20% of their jobs and still remain in business, then they should. Those people should be working at jobs where there is demand (and, yes, there are sectors of the economy that are high in demand and growing). That’s how a free-market works. Its not perfect, but its better than all the alternatives. The government buying worthless investments, is not how a free-market… Read more »

    Caio
    Member

    I don’t know about any of this but I knew a girl once who went to the fanciest university in Switzerland and payed something like $300 a semester, flat, for tuition.

    So something must be wrong on this continent.

    Paul_Is_Drunk
    Member

    @reboot Unemployment is at 5.8% That’s high. ~ This number is growing because people are getting fired, and no new jobs are being offered. ~ They could create new jobs, but then they would need liquidity. So still fucked there. “Free market” is semantics. For example: Utilities are not free market. The California energy crises is a good example why. American farmers are subsidized to the tune of $180 BILLION a year. That’s not free market. American airlines? Subsidized. I could go on, but the point is that we don’t truly have a free market. SECONDLY, the stock market just… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    @paul Some things, like utilities, don’t work as a free-market. Honestly, we shouldn’t be bailing out farmers or airlines, but that’s how votes and lobbyist money is bought. I understand your position. Especially on 401k’s. But the truth is the market crashed today because those stocks aren’t worth the prices they were asking. That kind sucks for people who are planning on drawing on their 401k’s in the next few months, but its better in the long run. If you don’t believe me, believe a Harvard economist (ran across this article after we started this discussion, but he agrees with… Read more »

    Paul_Is_Drunk
    Member

    @reboot With gas prices, airlines could never run with subsidization. Look at American airlines, prices, & food then compare that to more subsidized airlines in Europe and abroad. Without airlines, we wouldn’t be able to compete economically at any rate. It’s a digression, anyways. The point is that we are not a free market. If you really want to argue free market -vs- socialization, just look at Japan & Germany. Japan has an economy 1/3 the size of our, and a population to match. Germany? Same thing. They also happen to be the 2nd and 3rd largest economies in the… Read more »

    Paul_Is_Drunk
    Member

    *Airlines could never run without subsidization.

    Getting distracted by Guitar Hero here. This shit is hard for people who actually play guitar.

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    If you are going to argue that the free market is infallible, then you can’t ad, “Well, but…” to it. The hell, I can. There are certain requirements for a free market to work and some industries don’t meet those requirements. Roads, for example, since having multiple road between the same location is inefficient. I would argue that healthcare is similar, since there is no buyer choice to break a leg or have a heart attack. There are some aspects of our economy that are a free market and some that aren’t. The exact same statement is true in the… Read more »

    Paul_Is_Drunk
    Member

    @reboot *achem* 70% of all statistics are made up on the spot. 80%, huh? More recent REAL numbers here: www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/0908/Bailout_Poll_30_percent_for_45_against_.html 45% of people agree with you. Not even a majority. 57% of people agree that some sort of bail out package must be passed. If a car is overvalued at $25,000 over a ‘real’ value of $20,000… is that car worthless? No. It still has worth. Houses will always have a value. Even if they are overvalued by something like 10%, that still means you can sell for ~90.09% of the inflated value. Mind you, that is an example. (If… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    @Paul I was quoting numbers from a CNN poll Friday, that’s off the site now. But even your own poll shows that more people are against this bail-out, than in favor it. “For the record, houses never go for as little as 70% of value.” Do you have any reason to believe that? Because they’ve already dropped nearly that in some markets and show no sign of stopping. money.cnn.com/2008/04/29/real_estate/housing_price_fall_deepens/index.htm?postversion=2008042914 Also see the housing price rollercoaster link that I posted in the other thread. Obviously, if housing prices have got up by over 200% since 1995, they can drop by 50%.… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    As for the 1987 bail-out: I don’t think it ever actually worked. I think it dragged things on for a few more years until Fannie Mae started sponsoring sub-prime loans which caused the current bubble. The fundamentals of our economy, as John McCain puts it, have sucked since the mid ’70s.

    Paul_Is_Drunk
    Member

    @reboot Well thank you for the diploma information. I was getting highly suspect if that was true. Quoting your own article: “Other metro areas recorded only modest price declines, including Portland, Ore., down 2.0%” I admit, I have it pretty nice here. Then again we aren’t a boom city like Las Vegas, Miami, and Phoenxi (the 3 highest declines). So, I’ll admit, I was wrong there. Value is a relative term, but rather than belabor the point, I’ll move on. As for ad hominem (always a bad sign when an argument devolves into grammar attacks or semantic attacks), I contested… Read more »

    Paul_Is_Drunk
    Member

    Whoops. Just did the Quick Vote on CNN.com and 52% of people think not passing the bailout is a bad thing. This time I’m really out. As in I have to leave my computer. Though I really did enjoy taking out my rage on you. (Because you asked, my diploma is in Evolutionary Psychology. Kinda worthless, but I went to school to learn, not get a job, and just having a diploma helped me with my first business loans). Perhaps we can argue over… say… atheism -vs- religion some other time? (I’m an atheist). I’m looking forward to it.

    Caio
    Member

    What are you two arguing about, at this point, exactly?

    Paul_Is_Drunk
    Member

    Must go… locking up office in 20 minutes… Okay, quick facts check. My partner says Sweden face a similar crises in 1992, had a similar plan, and was able to make back at minimum 50% (number in debate for some reason) of the tax payer funds back. Can’t check facts right now, still able to admit what’s a fact and what’s not. @Caio Started out over whether or not the bailout would work, devolved into paying for college, at the end it seems like free market -vs- government regulation. Also: Lying. Mostly I just came here to pick a fight,… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    Since you’re bowing out, I’ll just stick with standard Lincoln-Douglas debate proceed and refute your final points without presenting any new points of my own. “you implied that simply being from Harvard gave him weight” I stated nothing but the facts. What you read into it, is your problem. “and I stated how it wouldn’t cost the tax payers much more than farming subsidies.” Which was based on you’re 70% estimate, which was demonstrated to be questionable. “and every other country tied to the banking crises (read: everyone) has already done so to a relative successful outcome.” That remains to… Read more »

    RP
    Member
    RP

    God you people are stupid.

    nyoki
    Member

    “Ah, the I Was Just Trolling defense. Sad how you think someone is an idiot, just because they disagree with you. ”

    Anyone else find this ironic?

    ack
    Member

    ^^^ Seconded.

    I don’t really mind though. It can be fun to watch a hissy spat. Not as good as gawking at a bloody traffic casualty, but still acceptable.

    Snarky Parker
    Member

    @ Caio:

    Switzerland is a country, my friend…

    @ everyone else in general:

    It seems as if a depression is inevitable. The goddamn derivatives market has iceberg-ed the Titanic that you all know as Wall Street. Even Warren Buffet, Donald Trump, and Robert Kiyosaki have had some ominous statements regarding the derivatives bubble, a stock market crash, and depression.

    @ Us Americans:
    It’s the best time to find an alternative plan and work with that: whether it be moving to another country, settling down in a rural state like Wyoming, or getting incredibly rich in an unconventional way. Good luck.

    Paul_Is_Drunk
    Member

    @reboot Very first thing I said, in the very first post: “To start the inevitable internet argument:” If I walk into a bar and say I’m looking for a fight, that’s not trolling. That’s picking a fight. You were the drunk who stood up and said, “I’ll fight ya!” Information on the Swedish bailout plan: www.nytimes.com/2008/09/23/business/worldbusiness/23krona.html Is it EXACTLY like our plan? No. But it is a plan similar to our, and it worked VERY VERY WELL. At any rate, we need a plan, and not approving a package is stupid. It’s also reckless. Guess what world response to us… Read more »

    CJFreeze
    Member

    GARRRRR with all youz scallywaggers! First off, I read everyones posts and those who did present arguments have a valid standing regardless of how trolling they could have been and were. This a perfect example of trying to put out the fire with a hose full of holes rather than figuring out how to not let this happen again. This crisis was an instant give-away after hurrican Katrina with the fact that Banks got screwed and couldn’t hold their end of the bargain and people should have realized that ” oh crap, what if the housing problem hits the rest… Read more »



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