I’ve met a lot of Americans. I’ve spent time in the U.S. and Generally, you’re all good normal people. But there is some deep seeded social paradigms that your culture has rooted into you. It changes the very blocks you were built with.
Certainly not everyone, and not everywhere in the states, but it seems fairly wide spread.

No one else can understand that. I would never choose to live in the U.S. but I have an outside perspective. I can see the inherent problem from here and it scares me. I would expect that someone currently living there would be able to see it too and simply leave, But perhaps having lived within the culture all your lives, it just seems normal. Its not. Advocating more guns as a solution to guns is perverse. Its the worst way of attacking the issue, but perhaps it’s just too far gone? Perhaps there is no way to reverse the damage? Whats worse, it doesn’t seem that Americans want to do anything to fix it. It gets worse and worse as the layers build.

Imagine a pet owner, that instead of changing the newspaper lining the kennel, they just put more newspaper over the old newspaper. Sure, you cover up the problem for a bit, but eventually your dog is standing on months worth of shit.

I do believe there is a safe way to own and operate a gun. I’m not opposed to the idea of guns, I’m opposed to the ease in which people can obtain them. Make the licensing process rigorous and difficult. Have an intensive month long course of use and safety. Do a background security check and psychological evaluation. Make it impossible to receive a firearm through any other means, and that would be a spectacular start in securing our peace of mind.

Currently, every Tom, Dick and Harry has a gun down there, and they just walked into a store and bought it. THAT’S what scares me. Not guns… the people who own them.

But you know, the other thing is, guns are so much a part of our culture for so many of us, it’s more like a hobby. Yes, some need them for self defense, but more than that, they are for sport, and and can even help teach responsibility as well. It is all about how and what you are taught a gun is supposed to be.

It’s no different than stamp collecting (though you’d be hard pressed to kill someone with a stamp). There is so much history, tradition, and engineering in firearms, that for me, at least, there is so much more to a gun than the fact that it can be used to kill someone.

When people like MrDooves see a gun, all they see is a weapon for killing. They forget that guns have played an equal role in both liberation as well as oppression. They are used to protect as well as to oppress. For some reason, they choose only to see the negative.

And then they accuse anyone who sees otherwise of living in fear, regardless of why they have chosen to own a gun. The truth is, the gun control lobbyists are also living in fear… of a straw man. It’s not how many guns or the gun laws that needs changing, it’s the people that need changing.

Guns may ostensibly seem like an easy and obvious target, but even if all guns were to be made illegal, it would not solve the real problem. it would, at best, be band-aid over a bigger, and much more important problem.

Our culture breeds jacked up, hyper aggressive, self serving psychopaths, and poor, ignorant, desperate people who don’t realize that violence is not the only way to survive when the going gets rough.

Your point about education, social reform and poverty eradication is well taken. I agree wholeheartedly. If all the gun control lobbyists would exert the same amount of much energy towards these goals, we might actually make a dent in it…

As for better education and eradicating poverty, yeah it would be nice but that type of social reform is going to be a long and painful process but definitely something worth working towards.

Bringing up the slavery issue is a cheap shot. We had slaves because that’s the way things were done back then in agrarian societies (especially when dealing with one the size of the US). I’m not saying it was fair or right, just that it happened. If anything, that experience has fueled the love for liberty that most Americans feel.

A lot of norwegians fought against the germans during the second world war(with sabotage and guerilla tactics) and after that war the mandatory military service for norwegians was implemented to be better prepared next time.

Oh and I think liberty and democracy is just as important for us as it is for you. If im not mistaken it was invented in Greece and developed in Rome, france, and later america?

And talking about liberty, atleast you have to go over 1000 years back in time to find slaves kept in norway
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery)

But yeah, your country is probably alot more violent than mine and if i lived in similar surroundings maybe i would have a different view. But i think one should strive to get ones country so safe that ordinary people keeping guns are no longer needed. And in my opinion that is achieved through social reforms to get rid of poverty and better education for everyone.

long post again ><

I’m truly glad that Norway is the way it is. You all do have a great mindset when it comes to social/civic responsibility. In American however owning a gun for self-defense (I’m not talking about hunting or competive shooting) is a necessary option. We have created a criminal society (and the availability of guns has nothing to do with that, it would be knives, lead pipes, toasters, whatever) and some people want to be able to protect their family.

And although it has only a little to do with the discussion, Do you think that the German invasion and subsequent occupation of Norway on in 1940 would have happened if the citizens of Norway had been better armed? True, armed resistance would have resulted in a much greater loss of life but liberty is pretty important to most Americans.

If someone came armed to my house to steal from me, i’d let them do it and report it to the police. Nothing material i own is worth risking my life by going into a gunfight to protect.

I have to say im happy to live in a country were me and my family can feel 99,99% safe without owning a gun, and were guns are rare for both criminals and ordinary people.

Im from norway, and all men have 1 year mandatory military service. So we know how to handle weapons, we’re allowed to have weapons(strict rules for how they are kept), we just choose not to.

And i dont see how more weapons can make any country safer. It just means more weapons are gone get in the wrong hands.

Long post, have discussed this with americans before, know you disagree with me… but i can’t get over how obsessed many of you are with keeping weapons and your illusion that it makes you safe.

http://www.avatarist.com/avatars/Funny/Do-not-fall-down-stairs.gif

You are still making emotionally biased arguments that have no truth in reality. Guns remove the user from the actual act? Really? If that’s the case, then why do police officers who have had to kill someone in the line of duty have to go for counseling afterwards?

Killing is killing. Even with a firearm, it is a traumatic experience for the killer. The firearm, by itself, cannot remove the reality of that from the shooter. Only people who have already experienced traumas that have numbed them to death and killing will be unaffected, and for people like that, who are already used to it, it will make no difference what weapon they kill you with.

I do not believe you fully realize that while there are those who are indeed just paranoid, there are others do actually need a firearm to stay safe, and that there are people who actually do train with, and use them responsibility. You have lived a life that has made the need for a firearm unnecessary, and you feel safe and sound in your own home. I am happy for you for that.

But please do not imagine that your life is mirrored by every one else. What makes sense for you does not makes sense for everyone else. The fact that someone has taken an opposing position does not make them “blinded by fear”.

If that were the case, It would be an equally valid argument for someone else to accuse you of being “blinded with fear” about everyone having guns. If you are worried about untrained residential firearm owners, then how about pushing for stricter regulation on that?

That’s somthing even I would go for. Heck, I think the same thing should be done for drivers licenses, cars are much more lethal than firearms. If people could be legally liable for not taking the requisite training/refreshers/etc., that would give everyone a choice, and will allow you to rest easy right?

How about pushing for that, instead of lumping all gun owners into the redneck demographic, writing them off as gun toting cretins, and depriving people who really need it of a way of defending themselves?

“Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.” I don’t live in fear of home invasion or robbery but when it comes to the safety of my family I will do everything I can to stack the deck in their favor. If a baseball bat is enough of a deterrent then fantastic, it won’t escalate. But if that’s as far as you are willing go to protect your family, I truly hope that they won’t have to be picked up with the rest of your “chips.”

And to everybody who thinks that guns are some sort of small penis redneck compensation device, grow up; a firearm of any type is simply a tool. Just like a vehicle, yeah some losers use theirs to validate their manhood but most folks just use them for what they were intended for. You seem quite intelligent and I respect your decision to not own a gun but don’t lower yourself by lumping all gun owners into your redneck stereotype.

@PhyreBlade:
How can you truly compare guns to melee weapons of any kind? People will always be violent, and yes, they will find ways to be violent with whatever they can find. Guns take things to entirely new levels. They are cold and merciless machines, they remove the user from the actual act. Just “point and squeeze”. By your own logic, people are inherently violent, so why in gods name should we promote making the process even easier for them?

I don’t have a problem with guns in the hands of trained professionals. Military or police force alike. And if the process of obtaining a license to own and operate was as vigorous, I’d rest a bit easier. But wielding a gun in your own home only escalates an already dangerous situation. These people are not trained, and will just as likely hurt themselves, their family, their neighbors.

Owning an alarm system is VERY different than owning a gun. Where do you draw the line between caution and outright paranoia? Are we preparing for war? Hell, that in mind, if a handgun keeps you safe, an M4 Carbine would keep you even “safer”! How about automated gun turrets in each room, just in case of the Zombie apocalypse… right? I haven’t prepared my home for a raptor attack either, do you have any suggestions?

Yes, there is a ‘chance’ a doped up junkie will somehow enter my home, wont be bothered by the alarm or grown man approaching him, and just start shooting. There is probably a ‘better’ chance I’ll trip on the front steps and break my neck, but I’m not gonna coat the stairs in rubber or dress in foam. I wont stagger about in a fearful daze of the Everything and Anything that ‘MIGHT’ go wrong. Of course I’ll take reasonable precautions, but I will not sacrifice my peace of mind or my moral standards for “If”.

Probably too late, but I have to ask:
Would you post your home as a “Gun Free Zone”?
As in putting up a sign proclaiming your lack firearms?

Would you post your address along with the fact that you refuse to own a firearm?

The ownership of firearms, and the possibility of encountering one behind any door is a deterrent to criminals. If you choose to own zero firearms, fine. But the mere possibility of having a firearm in a home is why home invasions are so rare, while burglaries of unoccupied homes continue.

Also ask yourself this:
1-Would you shoot someone raping your mother/daughter/co-worker/son?
2-Could you shoot a VT/Columbine-style attacker to protect yourself and innocent lives?
–The answer to those should be YES, any jury would agree with you, your favorite deity would agree, and your community would applaud you as a hero.

3-Could you ever knowingly shoot someone you love? Purposely murder your daughter, son, wife, parent?
4-Would you leave a firearm accessible to children, criminals, or cretins?
–Hopefully the answer to these is NO, because nobody intends to be irresponsible with any tool. Just as nobody buys a circular saw planning on not using hand guards/safety techniques, and then willfully cuts off a few fingers, also nobody I would associate with purchases a handgun intending to be anything but responsible with it.

kthnxbai…

I cannot fault you for your choices, as you seem to be willing to take responsibility for them, however have you really thought about the true nature of the “problem” you seem to be so fixated on?

Do you really think “guns” are the problem? How about knives? Or tire irons? In fact, how about base ball bats? Is bat violence ok?

You seem to be OK with baseball bats, so let me ask you this. Are you arguing that its OK to get robbed just so long as it’s with a baseball bat? Or do you just take exception to gun robberies?

My issue with your point of view, and that of people who follow the logic you are attempting to spread, is that you all seem to be fixated on a peripheral points.

You say you do not like what guns represent. I would put to you, that they represent no more or less than the person holding it. To think anything otherwise is illogical.

Do you also hate what a gun in the hands of a hunter out to get dinner represents? Or in the hands of a police officer who is attempting to defend you from an armed aggressor? In both of these cases, the gun is purely incidental. It could just as easily be a fishing rod/bow, or a taser/nightstick.

Your dislike should be towards the aggressor, not the tool he chooses to use. Your arguments appear to assume that the tool represents the violence. I assure you, it does not. Where I grew up, I saw just as much violence with random objects, such as machetes, automotive leaf springs, rocks, pens, etc… as I did with firearms of any type. In fact I daresay I’ve seen non firearm related violence than armed.

So I can tell you, from first hand experience, that you do not need a firearm to commit acts of atrocity. And, more importantly, a gun, as with any other weapon, is no more than a tool, that is just as effective for good purposes as it is for bad. To take any other position is simple foolish.

You say you will not live your life in fear. Really? You have a baseball bat and a burglar alarm. Do you use the burglar alarm out of fear? In fact you probably also have a fire alarm. Was that installed out of fear? Do you have a spare tire in your car because of fear? How about insurance? If those aren’t living in preparation and fear of big “if’s” of life, then what is?

I wish people would stop attributing non-existent characteristics to things, based on flawed assumptions and their own personal fears, and projecting them upon everyone else…

I can admit that I appreciate your perspective. Perhaps you have no choice but to live in a bad neighborhood or something… Who am I to judge you. I’m also glad you take a responsible approach to gun ownership. That’s a rare virtue.

You really seem to have taken allot of my posts personally. I’m not judging your choices.I was simply defending the logic of my own. When I originally stated my opinion, the hicks came popping out of their foxholes ready to shoot. *Pun intended* I was called every form of stupid because I don’t want to own a gun.

I respect your decision to own a gun. Perhaps where you live, there is a high risk of home invasion. My confusion is why you would stay…?

I do not like guns. I don’t like what they represent. I have lived a long happy life without them. I WILL continue to live safely as will my family.

I have a security system, and I have myself, and I even feel that is excessive. I will NOT live my life in fear and preparation for all the big “If’s” of life. Should hell freeze over, and an angry predator storms my home, isn’t disuaded by the blaring alarm and grown man holding a bat, then we’ll let the chips fall. I take responsibility for that, but I won’t contribute to the *problem*. God willing, this logic will spread. The world doesn’t need any more guns.

Owning a firearm is a responsibility. It’s not a toy, and it’s not something to be taken lightly. Guns are fun and all, but a responsible gun owner knows this and will teach his family the same. Even in the military, during all of our training, it’s always SAFETY FIRST. Any half brained idiot knows that.

Sorry if you’re too fucking dense to realize that it’s VERY POSSIBLE for people to own AND operate firearms in a safe manner.

Like I said, I’m going back into my pumpkin carriage so I can ride back my villa where I can live happily ever after.

And what? Do you really think if people stopped owning guns that violence would just cease? Are you stupid? How about that Japanese guy that stabbed, what was it—13 people or so just a few months ago?

No, I’m not kidding. If every gun owner in the U.S. just shot at the darkness every time there was a slight sound, I can assure you the amount of deaths due to firearms would skyrocket. That’s just common sense.

Have you ever even shot a firearm? Or do you even know any responsible firearm owners? And maybe it IS a little paranoid to think you might have to defend yourself or your family one day, but I’d much rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. You can take your chances with your bare hands, Billy Badass.

I didn’t say there are malicious “rapists and murderers just itching to get into my house” or whatever, but are you telling me that you’ve never known somebody who’s had a robbery or a break in of any sort?

War zone? It sounds to me like you’re basing your uneducated opinions on gun control from biased articles you’ve been reading. The VAST MAJORITY of these firearm related deaths are suicide, first of all. Secondly, most of the rest of those deaths are due to something completely illegal (i.e. murder, gang violence, etc) and NOT somebody who was killed when somebody else tried to defend him/herself.

Where do you live? Chances are, I’d bet your country probably has more deaths per year via automobile accidents than the U.S. has from gun related violent crime. Yet, I don’t see you crying about how everybody should just walk for the safety of your daughter. In fact, I’m willing to bet a large sum of money you DROVE YOUR FUCKING DEATH MACHINE some time today.

Also, hiding and attacking an intruder when you don’t know ANYTHING about them is still pretty fucking stupid. And since I’m guessing since you have yet to do this to your daughter, which is your aforementioned reasoning for not owning a firearm, I have to wonder why you think you would do this when you bought a firearm. Would you suddenly just lose all fucking sense and decide “Well, I’ve never been bothered by the noises in the night before. But, hey, now that I have a firearm, I guess I’ll just shoot shit up.”?

If you don’t want to own a gun, that’s fine, and it’s your choice. But don’t make up retarded ass arguments about how all gun owners are just nutjobs itching to blindly fire their weapons in the hopes of killing somebody. You’re the one talking about “voting in favor of social progress,” yet you’re also the one wanting to impose YOUR way of life on other people. Now I’m sure you’ll retort with something even more fucking stupid that boils down to you saying what you’ve been saying all along:

“BUT MY WAY OF LIFE IS DEFINITELY THE BETTER CHOICE BECAUSE MY OPINIONS AND EXPERIENCES ARE SUPERIOR TO YOUR’S!”

Please, tell me the amount of times somebody’s tried to force you to own a gun.

Actually, don’t, because I’m pretty sure the number is ZERO. I’m done with this argument because it’s been rehashed and repeated over and over, and I pretty much know exactly what the point of your next response is going to be.

I’ll go turn in my firearms now so we can all evolve into beings of pure energy.

As for the big magic button that makes guns go away? That was your idea. I’m aware certain places are filled with hillbillies that will fight to the death for their right to bare, doesn’t mean I have to contribute. There are much safer ways to secure a home. Mainly just not living in the U.S.

Have you people been making allot of enemies or
something? Save for a routine burglary, what kind of intruders are you expecting? There is obviously a HUGE difference between my home and yours. If there are malicious rapists and murderers just itching to crawl in through your windows, maybe you should move?

and no i wouldn’t ‘rush’ an intruder, confronting them at all shouldn’t be necessary. Likely I would shout out to frighten them away, then hide and wait with a blunt object in hand. Chances of it coming to blows are slim, but I can hold my own.

“More deaths in the U.S.”? due to shootings? Are you kidding? Is that even possible? Have you looked at the stat’s for shootings in the u.s, accidental or not? Even your countries leaders accidentally shoot each other. The figures are haunting, ‘exponentially’ more so than any other country. Compared to the rest of the ‘civilized’ world, You basically live in a war zone.

So for you, maybe I agree. Buy a gun, throw some bars on the windows. Get your children little matching Kevlar vests. and Hell, why not set up a gun turret in the front yard! Anything to keep that little slice of paradise safe right?

Meanwhile, I’m going to vote in favor of social progress.

MrDooves, do you really think that if you outlaw firearms as a whole for civilians that it will solve crime? That’s absurd. The only people who would obey that are obviously people who obey the law in the first place and therefore, the ones who are unlikely to be committing robbery, murder, assault, etc.

I don’t know, maybe when you outlaw guns as a whole and crime is stopped, you can hop on your winged horse and fly to the Never Never Land ruled by the Sherbert Royals where happy thoughts and sunshine keep you safe.

And do you really think most crimes are committed by kids who take “daddy’s weapons?” Are you kidding me? Out of the string of violent crimes committed recently(mall shootings, school shootings, etc), I don’t recall a single one of those people getting their weapon from their parents. In fact, I recall them mostly acquiring the guns illegally.

Even if they did ban guns wholesale, how in the world are you going to go about accounting for every gun in whatever country it is? It’s impossible and impractical.

I have every bit of confidence in myself when it comes to hand to hand combat or self defense, but rushing an intruder with your bare hands when, for all you know, there’s more than one of them and they could all be armed is pretty fucking stupid. You’re no good to your family dead, as heroic as it might sound to rush your attackers bare handed.

I understand you don’t want to risk your daughter’s life, and I can appreciate and really understand that, but if there’s ever a situation where her life is in danger, a firearm is going to give you a much better, more distinct advantage if you would just take the time to properly train yourself and educate your family on the subject.

I say again, any half sensible person is not just going to grab his weapon and fire indiscriminately into the darkness after he hears the slightest noise. If things were really like that, don’t you think there would be a LOT more deaths in the U.S.?

yes, that is the point of your post, except you extrapolated it out to where it applies to everyone. If you’re dumb enough to shoot your kid, you shouldn’t have a gun – but that doesn’t mean NOBODY should have a gun.