Comments on: Waterboarding

By: reboot

reboot — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:51:43 +0000

In a information complete, logical world, those would be the three conclusions. But you haven’t considered scenario’s that are information incomplete (that is, you don’t have a way of confirming the information is true even after investigation).
Suppose the interrogator asks “who are the other members of your terrorist cell?”. The detainee, who is not a terrorist, is tortured until he names 3 random people. Those three people are each tortured until they name three random people. Since you are in Iraq, one of those people might actually be a terrorist, just by chance. And when they go to his house and find a bunch of bombs and guns, they conclude that the operation was a success, even though its nothing but random chance.

By: Foinlavin

Foinlavin — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 15:33:15 +0000

Watched the video.

If the U.S.’s position is that we have only water-boarded three detainees ever, then one of three things is going on.
1. It doesn’t work, so we stopped.
2. It does work so we keep doing it but do not tell everyone because it makes fine upstanding citizens like yourself upset.
3. It does not work but we keep doing it for sport.

thehill.com/byron-york/when-waterboarding-works-2007-12-13.html

By: tiki god

tiki god — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 14:43:38 +0000

thinkprogress.org/2008/02/25/former-fbi-agent-ticking-bomb-scenario-is-a-red-herring/

former FBI interrogator on the subject

By: tiki god

tiki god — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 03:16:45 +0000

@Foinlavin

but that’s just the problem. torture will never and has never worked in a “ticking time bomb” situation. Not that there’s ever even remotely been anything that would prove this (really? ticking time bombs?) but logically if a terrorist knew when the ticking would end, and the blowing up began, why not just hold out till then? Shit, why wait till then? Tell them your entire story, all James Bond style!

By: Foinlavin

Foinlavin — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 02:55:13 +0000

@ Howie Feltersnatch
It was “the shield”, but early in the first season, I guess they had not established how crazy the character was going to be on a regular basis.

OK, so the consensuses can safely be said to be that torture as a matter of policy is a bad idea but torture may be an option in an extreme situation with a ticking time bomb and an orphanage and the water supply and a impending assassination with a imminent chemical attack.

By: ffaristocrat

ffaristocrat — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:03:42 +0000

Two facts:

1. Torture doesn’t work.
2. Torture is wrong.

By: Max

Max — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 15:48:13 +0000

Holy shit guys. I need to get my home computer working, cause missing this thing until I got to work sucks.
Anyways, lots of good arguments in here (though Bordero pissed me off with 90% of what he said). Since he’s been thoroughly flamed off this thread, I can safely congratulate you, and award you with one internet (collectively). I can really agree with a lot of what you guys said (especially the wrong but necessary occasionally angle, I’ve always wondered about that).
well done.

By: Snow

Snow — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 05:25:43 +0000

mAgnUS … make my children

By: mAgnUS BUTTfoorson

mAgnUS BUTTfoorson — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 04:25:00 +0000

When I heard about waterboarding I thought it was some new sport.

Looks like I was right. To the extreme.

By: Howie Feltersnatch

Howie Feltersnatch — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 04:09:42 +0000

Foinlavin: Was that “The Shield”? The phonebook treatment sounds like something Andy Sipowicz would have done on NYPD Blue. Vic would be more the shove-a-flashlight-in-the-perp’s-rectum guy. Heh heh.

The thing about torture is, that when people talk about these “ticking timebomb” scenarios where the terrorist has the code to the bomb, or knows where the dying kid is–of course you’re going to do whatever it takes to get the info. If you’re the cop, you’re going to beat the information out of the guy, and then suffer the punishement later. The problem with our waterboarding policy in Guanatamo is that we’re doing it lots of folks, without regard to immediacy. Torture, as a way to get general information, is immoral and ineffective.