Atheist Pamphlet

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    SmedlorificusAlecDalekGoldfingerknogoodidleftTrikYodz Recent comment authors
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    knogoodidleft
    Member

    i lol’d

    Gilly
    Member

    Atheism – Saving valuable ink.

    coolghoul
    Member

    I’m an atheist….Swear to God!

    T G Geko
    Member

    I can’t believe you, I’m Atheist

    knogoodidleft
    Member

    atheism is a non-phrophet association, cant spend much money on ink anyways.

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    Me and my cousin seriously considered doing this at the house of a nearby Jehovah’s Witness, but didn’t for fear of getting in trouble. Darn, I nearly had a slightly amusing anecdote there.

    natedog
    Member

    so what is the point of this bizarro?

    that nothing can convince someone to be atheist?

    that there’s no proof that god does not exist?

    maybe it’s just a punny little play on Atheism believing there is nothing out there creator-wise?

    on another note, check the lit dynamite at the bottom.

    and are Atheists required to wear pastels?

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    natedog, answers to your questions:
    it’s funny.
    no.
    no.
    yes.
    only in the spring.

    natedog
    Member

    so is there any proof that god doest NOT exist?

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    No, but there’s no proof that an invisible monkey is NOT throwing invisible, unfeelable poo at you either. Hooray for Russel’s Teapot!

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    That’s not meant to be offensive to anybody, I just thought it was an amusing analogy.

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    Russel’s Teapot is very good. Epicurus had some interesting things to say. There’s a bunch of oldies but goodies, like “If God created everything, who created God?” and “Can God microwave a burrito so hot that he can’t eat it?”

    coolghoul
    Member

    I always liked George Carlin’s, “Can God create a rock so big even he can’t lift it?”

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    God has a covenant with all grandfathers that all odd paradoxes are not allowed, in order to prevent suicidal time-travelling escapades. Therefore, God could microwave such a burrito or create such a rock, but would destroy the space time continuum in the process. Never underestimate the devastating abilities of deity-old people agreements!

    natedog
    Member

    as to who created god, i think i can answer that one. but i’ll prolly be ridiculed for attempting to answer it. anyways. if god did, in fact, create the physical universe, then he logically exists outside of the physical realm, which includes Time (or Spacetime, as it were). so if God made Time and Space, and exists outside of it, then not only does he not have a beginning or end, it would be impossible for him to have a beginning or ending. therefore, God, if he exists, cannot and must not have a creator. and as to being… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    Smedlorificus, if you worked a story around that premise, you might be able to write a good Neil Gaiman/ Terry Prachet-type novel.

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    Yay! I’m helping!

    Can has million dollar advance?

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    @natedog, What does “outside of the physical realm” mean? And “outside spacetime” only takes care of the chronological part of the problem, but you still have the teleological aspect. Consider this: in another thread, you basically made the argument that life is so complex, precise and amazing that it could not have happened by itself, it must have had a creator. But that creator must be itself by pretty complex and amazing, and by your own argument something complex must have a creator, so the creator must have a creator and so on…. For the 2nd part, you’re missing the… Read more »

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    Oh dear. The discussion is going all serious.

    But natedog, how does anybody know what God is like if He/She/It is outside of space time, how can anybody know what God is like? That God could just be a natural process.

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    God damn it, natedog is a idiot! So your answer to who created god is that he wasn’t. Um, yeah, whatever. I guess those bible pages make really great rolling papers. Just to be fair, here’s my theory, which I present for your criticism and ridicule: The universe began because nothing existed, and since for nothing to exist, there must also be existence to define non-existence. And when this first event happened, the universe split into every possible outcome of this event, and each subsequent universe also diverged at every possible event, either leading to infinite quantum instances, or disintegrating… Read more »

    natedog
    Member

    piss, it isn’t that hard to understand, people. if there is a god that made the universe, then this god made the physical aspects of the universe. and if this is the case, then it (god) exists outside of the physical universe, i.e. space and time. if god made time, then god cannot be bound by time. therefore, any creator of time cannot have a beginning. and @ Reboot, i never posted anywhere on the interwebs (including MCS) anything remotely like what you say i said in post #18. the point i was trying to make in the posts to… Read more »

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    natedog: no matter where god exists, in our universe, or another, who created him? In order to exist, there has to have been a state of non-existance where he didn’t exist. So what caused him to exist? And why is that easier to believe than the Big Bang and Evolution? At least those are two things that have observable properties.

    Also, if god doesn’t exist in our universe (according to your theory), then he simply doesn’t exist.

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    “‘before time’ is an oxymoron of sorts.”
    Bingo. ‘before time’ and ‘outside space’ are not just oxymorons, they are contradictions. If you conclude that god must exist outside space/time, then god cannot exist because there is nothing before time and nothing outside space by definition. Proof by contradiction. QED. Checkmate. Gameover.
    Congratulations on demonstrating yet another reason why god does not exist.

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    And while were on the topic, if god does exist, and wants us to believe in him, why make it so questionable? The ancients talk about being visited by “god” all the time, but I’ve never met them. Why did they give a different religion to each major race, and have them all contradict each other? If Christianity is the one true faith, why did it take 4000 years (according to the bible) for it to be presented, and even then, it was another 1600 years until people were even able to start actually READING this so called holy book?… Read more »

    natedog
    Member

    @ reboot: QED? Checkmate? whatever. you’re totally missing the point, and your ignorance is not helping. nothing PHYSICAL can exist apart from time and space. this is my point. if there is a creator, it existed in a different, non-physical ‘un-place’ and ‘un-time’. It’s like the internet. you cannot go into the internet, but you can react with it. we exist outside of the internet like a creator would have to exist apart from the physical world. and an oxymoron is a contradiction. so your clever phrase ‘…are not just oxymorons, they are contradictions.’ is stupid. that is like saying… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    My point was: An oxymoron is seemingly self-contradictory. I was pointing out that ‘before time’ goes beyond that and is actually contradictory. Everything that is real is physical. If something is not physical, then it is not real. God is not physical, so god is not real. QED. Its so easy it could be an SAT problem. ‘un-space’ and ‘un-time’ only exist in bad scifi, just like god, they are ‘un-real’. Your internet analogy is terribly flawed. Both you and the internet are real and part of space and time, so of course you can interact. What you need to… Read more »

    coolghoul
    Member

    LOL!! reboot ended his rant with the exact definition of Faith which is the entire basis of Christianity.

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    Why the personal insults? Natedog is entitled to his (or her) opinion, as is everybody else. Atheism does not allow us to call him an idiot, and religion doesn’t give them the right to call us anything nasty either. Our information will be better received if we try to be friendly. But back to the attempts at evangelism: Natedog, do you believe in evolution at any level? I read a report which demonstrated evolution in lizards. A predator was introduced into a habitat, which began to eat the small, ground-dwelling lizards that lived there. Over a few generations, the lizards… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    @Smedlorificus
    good call on personal insults, it doesn’t add to the discussion. For a summary of natedog’s views on evolution this thread. He jumps in at comment 56.
    @coolghoul, you are right, that is the definition of faith. It is also the definition of insanity.

    natedog
    Member

    www.m-w.com/dictionary/oxymoron Main Entry: ox·y·mo·ron Pronunciation: \ˌäk-sÄ“-ˈmȯr-ˌän\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural ox·y·mo·ra : a combination of contradictory or incongruous words (as cruel kindness); broadly : something (as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements you say “Everything that is real is physical. If something is not physical, then it is not real. ” what about consciousness? what about an idea? i can think of an apple, but that’s not an apple, it’s an idea. the apple in my mind can not be measured in any physical way, but that does not mean my idea is not… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    what about consciousness? philosophical question, but probably not real. If it is real, then its a biochemical process, very physical.
    what about an idea? Also a biochemical process.
    is honor not real? not real.
    what about justice? definitely not real.
    what about love? biochemical process.

    You’re making an argument from authority.
    Who cares what Sir James Jeans thought? He was wrong about solar system formation, he was wrong about steady state cosmology. There is no reason to think he was automatically right about God. Smart guys are wrong about a lot things. Newton believed in Alchemy. Schockley believed in eugenics.

    natedog
    Member

    Reboot: “if you continue to believe in God, you are doing so in defiance of all logic, reason and evidence.” you sound like hitler’s sidekick. people can have faith without being insane. and Smedlo: i never said things don’t evolve. things change, it’s obvious. but as far as explaining the origin of life out of non-life, evolution falls short. anyway, to clarify my point, here is an excerpt from the book “The Raw Shark Texts” by Steven Hall. this passage shows the power of words and how observation and thought can create whole worlds. It scratches the surface of the… Read more »

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    natedog: dude, hitler was christian.

    Goldfinger
    Member

    Well, he was baptized. Causing the death of 55 million people is not the exact answer to the question “What would Jesus do?” 😉

    natedog
    Member

    alecdalek,

    i could say i was a horse, but does that make me a horse?

    Name me one thing that Hitler did that could be considered something Jesus taught?

    people put all this shit on jesus, such as the Crusades and pedophile priests and corrupt politicians, like it is his fault or something.

    geez. reboot asked “If God created everything, who created God?”, and i just tried to put my 2 cents in. if you people don’t want anyone to try and answer it, dont ask.

    or at least don’t be such a dick about it.

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    The apple in your head is not real. Your thoughts are. They consist of electrical impulses running through your brain. Honour, love and justice only exist as electrical impulses and hormones. Perhaps eventually, a machine will be devised that can see the apple in your brain, but for now Magnetic Resonance Imaging can do a fairly good job of seeing what “goes on” when you think about that apple. The electrical signals are physically real, and as far as I’m concerned that is all they are: cunningly interpreted signals. I can’t see how the photon’s journey, and it’s Rube Goldberg… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    Hitler’s sidekick?? “the lake in my head, the lake I was imagining, has JUST BECOME THE LAKE IN YOUR HEAD” So wrong. what was in the background of his lake? what kind of boat was he in? how far away from the shore was he? I guarantee that the image in my mind and the image in the author’s mind were entirely different, conditioned by our experiences. Is there any other trite new age crap that you would like for me to shoot down for you? “geez. reboot asked “If God created everything, who created God?”, and i just tried… Read more »

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    natedog: nice try, but that’s what’s called the “No true Scotsman” fallacy. The fact remains, he was christian, not just before the war, but until his death. Why else do you think he wanted to kill all the Jews? And he got all his ideas about killing the Jews from reading the writings of Martin Luther (and don’t even TRY to say ML isn’t christian). Yes, the man that started practically every non-catholic christian religion, called for the extermination of the Jews, and it was the faithful hitler that answered the call.

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    ^^

    Also covers that lake as far as I’m concerened.

    Jesus was quite a nice chap, but Christianity has caused lots of nastiness in its time.

    Hitler wasn’t really a christian. He followed some sort of strange, German mysticism, mixed with a generous dollop of good old lunacy.

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    Actually Hitler rejected all the crazy nazi mysticism and occultism. He favoured a nazi form of christianity called “Positive Christianity”.

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    If Hitler wasn’t Christian then why was he always trying to get the Ark of the Covenant or the Holy Grail?

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    I stand corrected. But how did he get around the whole “Jesus = Jew” thing?

    natedog
    Member

    Jesus came first to the Jews. Jesus was a Jew. nothing about Jesus is not Jewish.

    if Martin Luther or Hitler or anyone else tries to kill people in the name of Jesus, this does not make him a christian.

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    I know, crazy, eh? I think they view Jesus as being a non-jew born to a jew. But hey, whatever gets you through the night.

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    If Hitler and Martin Luther aren’t christian, what are they? Certainly not athiest, muslim, jewish, or hindu. By your logic (or lack thereof) anyone that commits a “sin” is not christian. But then Jesus told his followers they all had to sell everything they owned and give it to the poor before they could follow him. But christians are excellant and ignoring anything they don’t agree with.

    Goldfinger
    Member

    Now that’s some theory that calls for proof. So Luther was anti-semitic. Hitler was anti-semitic, too. What exactly makes you think Hitler got this from the work of Luther? By the end of the 19th century, anti-semitism was a social issue that had nothing to with the church anymore, because the church had lost most of it’s influence during the process of secularization that started in the 17th century. Fact is that the Nazis replaced many christian rites and even lyrics with pseudo-pagan or at least non-christian ones. Hitler never used christianity as an argument! The strange urge to kill… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    Hitler was trying to kill all the Jews. Jesus was a Jew and was killed. So there is some consistency there.
    Jesus is even a role-model since he was killed voluntarily.

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    I think that “being a Christian” is a completely internal thing. If you think Jesus is God, you are a Christian.

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    Right, there is no way hitler could possibly known about Martin Luther, since hitler was born after the 19th century (actually he was born in the 19th century, and fought in WWI). If only Martin Luther had written down his thoughts, in some language similar to hitlers. Seriously, I’m having a really hard time trying to think of a single athiest or non-christian that called for the extermination of the jews (at least not any that might live in a shack in Montana). Why would an athiest want the jews exterminated? Makes no sense. It’s the christians that have used… Read more »

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    Now maybe if the Jews were to kill Richard Dawkins, you’d have a few anti-semitic athiests. But as it is, athiests mainly hate christians.

    TrikYodz
    Member

    haahahaa
    on the otherhand i LOVE this tedious entertaining convorsation
    aithests bitch
    then some other people make sense back at them

    i think thats the pattern

    how the fuck did this go to martin luther and Hitler
    wtf guys !
    ahhahahaha

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    Atheists shouldn’t mainly hate Christians. I personally have an almost equal mild dislike for every religion. Buddhism gets let off a few unpleasant points for not really believing in anything specific. Some buddhist sects are atheistic, are they not?

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    There are no creator gods in Buddhism. It’s technically not a religion, but more of a lifestyle or “way”. But there are some Buddhists that treat it like a religion.

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    TrikYodz, please do not turn this pleasantly warm debate into a flamewar. From the atheist point of view, the religious people “bitch” and the atheists “make sense back at them”. The fun of the thing is that both sides think the other is stupid and refuses to see the obvious.

    Goldfinger
    Member

    @AlecDalek:
    You’re making no sense. Period. Go read a history book. Of course Hitler and Luther both spoke (and wrote) german, but Luther DID NOT INVENT ANTI-SEMITISM!!! Following your line of argument, Hitler got his anti-semitism from the apostle Paul!
    And for the last time: Anti-semitism is not a matter of religion. Those people are not anti-jews, they’re anti-semitists. Go figure.

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    Though Martin Luther did not invent antisemitism, many believe that Hitler was influenced by Martin Luther’s essay, “On the Jews and their Lies”. Of course, one book alone didn’t make him into a genocidal lunatic, but it still had an affect on him.

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    I’m making no sense? When did I say ML invented anything, other than the protestant movement. So I ask again, if you’re not christian, what possible reason would you have to hate the jews?

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    Because they lend money, and you owe them a punitive amount of interest?

    Goldfinger
    Member

    Read a good book about Hitler. As a historian, I recommend the biography by Joachim Fest. Read about his motivation and arguments. You will see that he never argued as a christian. His reasons are representative for the European anti-semitism in the 19th and 20th century, because that is what mainly influenced him. @smedlorificus: I know that essay. And while it may have influenced Hitler, it does not influence my opinion about Jews. For I come from a completely different social background. Hitler already had an anti-semitic predisposition caused by his social background in Vienna, Munich and WWI. Fertile ground,… Read more »

    knogoodidleft
    Member

    Well If there is a god…who cares? do you know how long humans have been on earth? some scientists say 1.7 MILLION times earth went around our weak sauce excuse for a sun 365.26 times. <—holy fuck, dinosaurs have been estimated to lived on earth for 160+ million years, and then some scientist guesstimate the earth is 4.5 BILLION years old. (and I don’t give a fuck what anybody says, we don’t and will never know how old the earth truly is) My point is… If there is a god, we would be a bat of an eyelash (assuming god… Read more »

    knogoodidleft
    Member

    heh, reading it now I sounded angry, prob cause I blew a subwoofer today 🙁

    Any who I got bored and went searching for a new movie to watch, and the damn tokyo drift stopped at 20mins and then i found this : quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=20689

    only 20 mins in now, so far its okay I guess, I’m digging the soundtrack too.
    If you got an hour check it out.

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    I don’t think you can prove there is a god, but I also think you can’t prove there isn’t. Personally, I think it would be awesome if there really was a god. But so far all the “holy” books supposedly written by god, have disappointed. Too many obvious mistakes and biases. If god does exist, I think they’d be much more impressed by someone trying to determine if they really exist than by blind, unquestioning faith. We have brains, so why not use them?

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    It could be cool if there was a nice God. One who was beneficial in a lazy sort of way, but who made his presence felt in a more obvious way. I want mountain ranges in the shape of His signature, dammit!

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    @Goldfinger: while said essay does not influence your opinion about Jews significantly, it possibly did strengthen Hitler’s opinon. Of course it was mostly his social background that influenced him, but it may have turned him from a racist bastard into a bigger racist bastard. Apparently, according to that somewhat spurious psychiatric report the Americans did on him, he thought all Jews had syphallis. I must read Mein Kampf at some point, to see what he really thought about stuff. Apparently Esperanto was part of the Zionist conspiracy to rule us all.

    Goldfinger
    Member

    The guy didn’t only have racial issues anyway. The guy was crackers. What’s important is the political use he and his “inner circle” put to the common racism, revanchism, nationalism and anti-semitism in germany at that time. There were many jews who were ignored by faking their papers, for example Richard Strauss (jr.) who had a jewish grandfather and was a jew according to the Nuremberg laws. But he also was one of the most popular componists at the time so they just made him aryan. And he’s only one of many many examples. The Third Reich and what happened… Read more »

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    The problem with hitler wasn’t that he was crazy. It was that he started out sane, but slowly, gradually, went crazy.

    Smedlorificus
    Member

    Hooray for shellshock!



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