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The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

When you have fundamentalists who what to teach Creationism in a science class, then yes, it matters.
When you have a President who thinks God talks to him, then yes, it matters.
When you have a former Secretary of Interior who said the environment doesn’t matter because the 2nd coming of Jesus will be in our lifetime, then yes, it matters.

LordPartyTime
Member

When you have a school that puts you on suspension for saying a silent prayer before you eat it matters. When you have a science teacher that belittles religious beliefs and disciplines anyone that proposes an idea other than theirs in class and grades them down for it, it matters. When there are people stupid enough to try and force their beliefs on anyone else and those stupid fanatics are the ones that are in charge of teaching young minds actual proven facts and approved curriculum. When the nation is more involved in arguing over how things should be run… Read more »

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

LordPartyTime:
1) How can some one be suspended for saying a silend prayer? Please link to a source.
2) Science class is for teaching science, the systematic study on natural phenomena through experiment. Everything else MUST be left out. Again, please give ONE example of what you have claimed happening.
3)People who are smart enough to realize that science is the most successful model of thinking ever are trying to make sure that this heritage continues to be passed down.
It does matter because nations that reject science tend to really shitty places to live.

diabeetus
Member

I like pie.

outlanderssc
Member

I prefer fish tacos

morbo
Member

I LOOOOOVE pie!

LordPartyTime
Member

1) in high school, there was a lunch room “monitor”, she was athiest, i said a silent prayer before i ate my lunch, mouthing the words and before i was halfway done eating, the principal was calling me into his office and i got a 3 day suspension. My religious beliefs offended her. 2) again, in high school. This time, however, the offending teacher was fired. I did A work on all assignments, was graded as such, and scored 98% plus on all tests. In a discussion on evolution, after extremely disparaging remarks concerning the intellectual fortitude and various other… Read more »

outlanderssc
Member

How do you manage to breathe with your head that far up your ass? This post is so full of idiocy it boggles the mind.

LordPartyTime
Member

Oh, and I really really really … LOVE pie 😉

Rorschach
Member

First of all, none of this matters. Second, LordPartytime, you’re a fucking idiot.

Phyreblade
Member

Apple pie?

Rorschach
Member

Pie it is, then.

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

LordPartyTime: As for your examples 1 & 2, try providing a link some incidents. We are after all discussing a issue that hinges on verifiable evidence. Because right now I think you’re full of shit. Something like a teacher being fired would have been picked up by Fox News. 3) As you should know since you got an A in science: people do not evolve, populations do. Oh, and here is scientific evidence that not only are people evolving, their evolving faster. Almost every experiment in biology from Mendel’s peas to the drug-resistant bacteria has directly confirmed the Theory of… Read more »

goatsgomoo
Member

LordPartyTime: 1,2: I agree, nobody should be punished for expressing their personal beliefs (within reason, of course) 3: “Show me one person who has evolved since the HMS beagle began her voyage” First of all, anybody with any “birth defects” are examples of evolution. The human race as a whole wouldn’t have easily noticeable evolution within even 2000 years. There aren’t enough generations of humans within such a short timespan for the human race to change radically enough for it to be very noticeable. There are plenty of examples of other species evolving. Where do you think new kinds of… Read more »

Rorschach
Member

You could always go die and further the gene pool along.

Synfyre
Member

lordpartytime,

Evolution is constantly changing, like out world and the people on it, therefore it can not be nailed down as a constant factor in everything. In retrospect most faiths have not changed in hundreds of years and are sadly lacking in todays world, a world which evolution is abreast with.

Kero
Member

So LordPartyTime you can beleive in the THEORY of a giant wizard that lives in the sky and who has the mentalitity of basically a 5 year old, versus the slow adaptations to our environments of different species over (hundreds of) thousands of years? CHERRY PIE! FUCKERS. I win 🙂 Oh no. Raspberry pie with thick cream, sort of liek whipped cream but not sweet at all. mmm so good. now i want pie. bitches. If i was god i’d be all “Sup bitches. Lol i’m god!” Or i’d by like why would i care about some retarded planet liek… Read more »

schulzbrianr
Member

I like how it’s cool for kids to pretend they know everything, and bash something because they think they’re smarter than everyone else. Religion may not be perfect, but it’s a good way to get across moral values, and the punishment vs reward system is a good way to get kids to behave, and learn how to be productive. Granted, you don’t NEED these “stories” of religious nature to get the moral values, but it has worked well for quite some time. Now that it’s popular to shit on Christianity in particular, everyone is jumping on that bandwagon.

LordPartyTime
Member

@ rorschach: I’m a fucking idiot and you’re an accidental mutation of ooze. Good to see we agree eye to eye. @ reboot: if you do not accept firsthand accounts, then even a link would not satiate you, as I could have easily manipulated such a piece of evidence. This is the internet, is it not? @ kero: Actually, in my theory, the wizard is more like 3, and he’s not all that giant. Kinda short actually, stubby. But I do like the robots, maybe you should be god? Did we all so soon forget hair pie? As for the… Read more »

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

@LordPartyTime,
A first hand account is perfectly acceptable if and only if you provide some way for me to verify your claims. If you can’t understand that, then you deserved to fail science.

Deleted_User
Member

At schulzbrianr I completely agree that religion is good for kids to teach moral values and how they should behave. But like Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy, who also teach great moral values, you need to realize that common sense dictates that they aren’t real. At LordPartyTime Guess I missed my chance since he says he is done but I think I’ll keep going anyway. When asked for a link to a real source he is implying that your gonna link to a major site such as fox or cbs that has reported news for a long ass time… Read more »

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

And, shoot, while I’m at it @schulzbrianr, I’m not trying to make fun of someone for their beliefs, my first post to just to try to demonstrate that it’s not an issue that can be ignored. Further post were to demonstrate that LordPartyTime has no clue about science. As for the moral aspect: the US is one of the most religious countries in the world right now, but we have the highest incarceration rate of any developed country. No study has ever shown atheists to more likely to commit crime than Christians (and some have shown the opposite). Its a… Read more »

schulzbrianr
Member

Provide a link.

schulzbrianr
Member

The fact that some people choose to believe in something greater than themselves is nothing to compare to proof of science. That’s all well and good, but the fact that the persecution of Christians (and other religions BY Christians in the past) is no reason for you to mock a system of beliefs that someone else holds. I have never had anyone try to cram religion down my throat, and you are free to believe anything you wish. If someone comes up to you and tries to convert you, be polite, but tell them, I’m sorry, I don’t believe, and… Read more »

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

Good call, schulzbrainr
Belief in evolution by country Notice Iceland at the top, US near the bottom
Prisoner per capita by countryNotice US at the top, Iceland near the bottom, trend can be generalized.
Violent Crime per capita by state
Percentage of children who attend weekly church services by state
Nothing conclusive, but its clear that church attendance and crime rates have nothing to do with each other. Which in turn discounts the idea that religion helps you become moral.

asdf
Member

razzleberry pie from marie calenders and apple/blueberry crisp are pretty tasty with ice cream. why does the universe have to be created couldn’t it have always existed and just goes through cycles of expanding and contracting or maybe it retains its shape and only appears to be expanding from inside. maybe darwin didn’t even exist and all those people before photographs are a test from god to see if we fall for the trap like those damn fossils, the selection of bacteria that are anti-biotic, humans coming from ape/monkey. natural selection dominates. this is stupid…………………

schulzbrianr
Member

Just because there is a religion, and some prisoner who raped and murdered people says “I found Jesus” doesn’t mean shit either. Also, pay attention next time you’re in statistics class to how you can manipulate data to prove your point. Also, I don’t remember being asked to participate in any of these surveys, therefore the selection isnt 100%, and is therefore only a prediction (again with the statistics) Also, I never said that religion HELPS you become moral, only that it was a good way to get the idea across to children. Other than “If you do this, you… Read more »

FlyingMantisShrimp
Member

I’m glad we were all able to get this out in the open. I feel we’ve really resolved a lot of issues by discussing “religion” on the Internet.

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

I didn’t say anything about prisoners finding Jesus in prison, I just showed that religious countries and states have just as many (if not more) criminals than those that are less religious. I’ll even point out that Russian has high crime rates and low church attendance, so its not like atheists are all perfect, either. I am merely refuting the claim that “Religion … [is] a good way to get across moral values”. There is no statistical basis to support this claim. Punishment and reward conditioning can be done without using religion Also you don’t have to poll 100% of… Read more »

wookie_x
Member

I love how people say that we need religion to pass on morals. Morals are nothing more than rules that enable a society to proceed somewhat smoothly. Don’t steal. Don’t murder. Things like that. Morals change over time. This has been shown again and again. It used to be ok to marry a 7 year old child. Not so much any more (unless you live in Arkansas, but then she has to be your sister….JOKING!!). It used to be ok to perform human sacrifice. Ask the ancient Aztecs, Mayans, Egyptians, Phoenicians, and Greeks. But not any more. Morals change. If… Read more »

no0tic
Member

only a thing. science theories CANNOT be proven. They can only be confuted by experiments.

schulzbrianr
Member

I also think that this country is actually balanced, being that we have so many religions (that we are supposedly free to practice without interference from the government) or the lack of a religion, not that we are religious, which to me would be closer to having a single religion being the predominant one. I’m also not saying that it CAN’T be done without religion, I believe it can, but most kids are too damn dumb (thanks to parents being too damn dumb) to figure out how to do this without a time-tested structure like a major religion. I was… Read more »

Ward
Member
Ward

Tolerance nowadays towards religious beliefs in a bad thing IMO. Disdain is more appropriate post 9/11. It has been proven that our morals do not come from a religion and nor is it a reliable frame from which morals can be passed down (because religion refuses to change as the moral zeitgeist of the society evolves – the scripture still casually mentions things we’d consider horrific today. As for Jesus, there is no contemporary evidence that he ever existed. Everything you could produce would be hearsay. The quality and quantity of what you have is roughly equal to to what… Read more »

lawlsome
Member

It’s neat how such a shitty picture can spark such a heated debate. Especially since the image implies that atheism is the belief in the big bang. An atheist is a person who believes that gods do not exist. TWO FUCKING DIFFERENT THINGS!

FlyingMantisShrimp
Member

@ Reboot.

Oh no, I totally and seriously agree with intelligent conversations over anything.

I’m just saying that this same, old discussion has been played out thousands of times and it never, ever makes a difference. Nobody probably walks away from this thinking “Oh, well that (name her) really had a good point!” Most of the time, it’s just reduced to a pissing contest with people typing and not listening.

Gilly
Member

I have a lot of little… PieEttes here. Tasty they be.

With 0% God!

Luke Magnifico
Member

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA… Read more »

RainOfBlood
Member

zeitgeistmovie.com/ wake up and smell the pie

tehBob
Member
tehBob

You forgot one thing: Lemon meringue pie owns all…and anyone who says differently, can talk to my hammer.

PS – My internets are better then your internets!

Caio
Member

I gotta say, this is one of the best threads I ever read. Usually these threads get pretty crap, but this one has been interesting from start to end, which makes me think MCS might actually be getting better. One thing caught my eye though. “teaching young minds actual proven facts and approved curriculum.” I know you Americans don’t care much about education unless it touches upon one of your more sacred topics like religion or white surpremacy, but that’s a pretty odd view to take of education as a whole. Generally the point of education is not to teach… Read more »

Kaze
Member

First and foremost: I’m sad that nobody noticed that they used an Interrobang in the picture. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interrobang Second, pie is a religion, which you should join: In the beginning, there was naught but several different ingreedients, drifting in chaos. On the first day, the Pie turned on the great cosmic oven, preheating it to precisely three hundred and seventy-five degrees Farenheit. The Pie blessed Its divine Kitchen-Aid, and it was good. On the second day, the Pie unwrapped Its pre-made graham cracker crust, which was eternally crumbly and delicious. The Pie blessed this crust, and nibbled on the crumbs it… Read more »

Caio
Member

As for Ward: Lollercaust to you friend. I’m a historian, and I’ve gotta say, there’s no proof virtually anyone existed before the year 1500, save maybe a dozen kings or emperors. Proove to me, for example, that Aristotle existed. What do we have of him? A few very muddled, pieced together books (the textual critic in me says multiple authors), and a handful of ancient referances made hundres of years after his so called “death”. Who’s to say he wasn’t as legendary as Achilles? Or that Achilles was all that legendary, for that matter. As a reasonable person, I have… Read more »

schulzbrianr
Member

Ciao: Yes, that is one of my main gripes with the US education system. The schools force teachers to adhere to curriculum’s, and adherence to standardized tests as the basis for raises, performance, etc. I paid attention in school, never skipped class, but didn’t to homework, seeing as how I thought it more important to learn the idea that day, if I didn’t understand it, how would going home and trying it on my own be any more beneficial than in the school environment with classmates and the teacher? If I DID understand it, then what was the point of… Read more »

RichardAtHome
Member

“@ rorschach: I’m a fucking idiot and you’re an accidental mutation of ooze. Good to see we agree eye to eye.”

Ah but, rorscach will evolve into something better, you however will still be an idiot.

/peace

despite rumors
Member

Aw Richard…I missed you 🙂

Frank
Member

@ Caio

“there’s no proof virtually anyone existed before the year 1500, save maybe a dozen kings or emperors.”

So what says you on human(ish) skeletons dated back to +190mya?

Egyptians: the great pyramids are +4000 years old.

Can’t do math, or temporarily “forgot” them for the sake of argument?

nippletwister
Member

I refuse to read past the first two comments. LordPartyTime, you are a liar. Capital fucking “L” LIAR. You were never fucking suspended for saying prayers before eating, you lying shitsack! Take your worthless christian lies and stuff them up your worthless ass, and then go cry to your imaginary friend.

Part of me suspects that you just make up stupid lies and bullshit to stir people up-if that’s the case, then know this-you are an even bigger shitbag for doing so. Go jerk off in your mom’s panties again, cocksnack!

LordPartyTime
Member

Now that is funny. I am not commenting on the issue at hand, but the astounding amount of personal attacks is true hilarity. Nippletwister, I can only assume, is all of twelve years old, read a book that his daddy told him he couldn’t, and decided to use some of his new favorite words on the internet and make himself feel all big and smart. *golf clap* Good for you, nipp, good for you. I do, however, invite you to visit Jerome, Idaho. Then, after experiencing some of that wonderful culture, I’ll gladly accept your humble apology for your grossly… Read more »

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

@LPT
The personal attacks are because you’re making assertions without anything to back them up. Which shouldn’t be to surprising, since that is the basis of religion.
If you’re going to be a dipshit, people will make fun of you. You’ll understand that better once you leave NapoleonDynamite-ville.

@Frank, Caio’s point, I believe, is that its impossible to prove the existence of most specific people before 1500. Pharaohs, like emperors, would be one of the obvious exceptions.

Caio
Member

“So what says you on human(ish) skeletons dated back to +190mya? Egyptians: the great pyramids are +4000 years old. Can’t do math, or temporarily “forgot” them for the sake of argument?” Yes, I should have said *individual* people seeing as that adjective was totally obvious from the context anyway. But in cracker insane dream logic world, I guess that could have been interpreted as humanity as a whole. Sorry for the vagueness, and I’ll try to remember who I’m adressing next time. Prove an individual Egyptian peasant exists who we know any actual substantial information about. Or even a British… Read more »

RainOfBlood
Member

zeitgeistmovie.com/ amazing video people , changed meny of my veiws on life well worth spending the 2h i think it is to watch it if you havent already

Fjord83
Member

First off I think it’s really kinda silly that you both agree that religion (weather your pro or anti) is important and your still fighting about who’s right. Reminds me of the Crusades when Catholics were fighting with each other as to what to call themselves. You both agree on the same basic point so why fight? Secondly, @ reboot you want your link about religious discrimination in schools? How about one from The University of Michigan? sitemaker.umich.edu/hwaters/discrepancies_with_religion_in_schools Lastly, I am a southern baptist, not that any of you may even care, and I also believe in evolution. I KNOW… Read more »

Fjord83
Member

Ohh and Pumpkin pie is the best. 😀

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

Fjord83, None of your examples are relevent or analogous to what I was asking a examples of. The first two deal with muslims in schools. I have no doubt that muslims have problems in American schools. The third example was about kids being barred from “gang colors/styles, cult dress/styles, Vampire/Death-style make-up, black nail polish, satanic jewelry, dog collars” none of which are religions (No, vampire is not a religion). LPT claimed that atheists were specifically discriminating against Christians in school, including forging grades. Where the hell did you study microbiology?? Don’t tell me you actually got a degree?? Common cellular… Read more »

Fjord83
Member

First I making reference to the fact that ALL religions are targeted in schools, just google “religious discimination in schools” and you’ll get a whole list of articles. Secondly, yes all living creatures do have common traits and cells. However, if all living creatures evolved from a single cell organisim, (and I may be wrong) which is what I understand darwinisim to belive, then how do we have thousands of different species and the only creatures that have the most in common are in the same class? If we evolved from primates why are there still primates? If we evolved… Read more »

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

@Fjord83
You are a liar and have never “gone through college for microbiology”.

All of your questions have trivial answers from any high school biology text. The fact that you still bring up these tired arguments proves you’ve never passed a biology class in your life. Got anything else? What about, “the eye is too complex to have evolved”? These are elementary.

In the bible God says “Everything in my book is true.”

That is nowhere in Bible.

Literal interpretation of the Bible has already been proven wrong, based on internal contradictions and inconsistencies alone. QED

LordPartyTime
Member

reboot, i’m not trying to prove you wrong, but to give you a bit of perspective from the point of one who does happen to believe the bible. Using your own link: GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness. GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn’t created until the fourth day. From the viewpoint that God created everything, as in nothing existed but him at the point in time which creation took place, it is entirely understandable to create light, and then to later create a source for that light… Read more »

natedog
Member

you know, as far as Evolution vs. Creationism goes ~at least as it concerns the origin of life~ neither one can really be called scientific, because neither is a repeatable event. you can’t create another universe. science is defined as ‘systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.’ (dictionary.com) The thing is, on the surface, both evolution and creation offer viable explanations for why we are here. the problem arises when you try and scrutinize either side. i would say both have their own hurdles and obstacles. in my opinion, the Bible and your average… Read more »

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

@ LPT, some of those contradictions can be resolved or rationalized through metaphysical interpretations, as you have done. But you have to admit that there are a lot inconsistencies listed there and if even one is unresolvable then the whole “the Bible is the perfect word of God” falls about. And just to clarify, I did not call you a liar for your beliefs, I called you (and Fjord83) a liar for making specific, unreasonable claims without any evidence. If a teacher got fired, that should at least be in your local newspaper and you can provide a link. I… Read more »

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

@natedog,
“he biggest obstacle Evolution has to overcome is the physical mechanics of microbiology.”
O RLY? care to elucidate how the very process that is used to support the Theory of Evolution is also its biggest obstacle?

LordPartyTime
Member

The paper never got a hold of the info because the principal was overly concerned about her reputation, she was a dick. The teacher left quietly, as he wanted to get hired somewhere else. Our papers are more concerned with agriculture news, the burden of living in a farming state. However, I understand your refusal to believe me. Totally understandable. I’ll take a look at the rest of the inconsistencies, but from the brief overview of what i had read it was mostly mis-interpretations of the scriptures in question, but in the interest of fairness I’ll go ahead and read… Read more »

natedog
Member

@reboot: In order to truly understand a function, one must understand in detail every relevant step in the process. The relevant steps in biological processes occur ultimately at the molecular level, so a satisfactory explanation of a biological phenomenon such as vision must include its molecular explanation. When light first strikes the retina, a photon interacts with a molecule called 11-cis-retinal, which rearranges within picoseconds to trans-retinal. The change in the shape of retinal forces a change in the shape of the protein, rhodopsin, to which the retinal is tightly bound. The protein’s metamorphosis alters its behavior, making it stick… Read more »

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

@natedog, did you miss the part in my reply to Fjord83 where I sarcastically dismissed the eye-complexity argument? It was almost if I’ve heard that argument and could immediately refute it and provide support for that refutation. www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB301.html Your description of the biochemical processes in vision is roughly accurate. But it’s not as impressively complex as you seem to think it is. There are a lot of biochemical cycles that are just of elaborate, if not more-so. Funny that you mention molecular motors because it just so happens that my undergrad work was in that field (I’m second author on… Read more »

knogoodidleft
Member

Ermmm, while were getting all deep n’ shit here,

How the fuck can paper beat rock?!

And cake > pie any day.

natedog
Member

so would SOMEONE explain how any molecular machines or even a motor from a car can come to be in a step by step method? you have to have all the parts there and working in order for the machine to work. take out the driveshaft or a rotor or a propeller and it does not work.

knogoodidleft
Member

? huh

A motor will work without a drive shaft 😀
But a cam’less motor will not work because everything must work in perfect harmony to function in a machine.

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

@natedog, a molecular motor protein is only a motor in the sense that it converts chemical energy into mechanical energy. Any comparison with a car engine or electric motor is only a convenient metaphor. If you look at kinesin, it really only has two parts (3 if you count the microtubule surface). I don’t know what part your having a hard time believing. Motor proteins are driven by alternating between binding and non-binding states. The change between these states is initiated by the hydrolysis of a nucleotide (like GTP or ATP). Lots of proteins are enzymes, lots of enzymes bind… Read more »

natedog
Member

@reboot to call a motor protein, or any protein, ‘simple’ is totally lame. cells are not simple. and neither are any of their parts. people play it off like life began as some simple goo or whatever; when the chasm between nonlife and life is staggering and profoundly different. you’re totally missing my point, which is that machines ~even simple ones~ cannot just come about mindlessly in a step by step manner. the human body, as it exists now, could not have come to be what it currently is in such a way. you have to have all the many… Read more »

natedog
Member

and also reboot, when you say
“a molecular motor protein is only a motor in the sense that it converts chemical energy into mechanical energy.”,
i really beg to differ.

if you simply go to google images and google “bacterial flagellum motor” you will see thousands of pictures of the things. it is a motor in the literal sense and all the other senses.

and also, if you read that “lot of research on the specific evolution of motor proteins” that you linked to (www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/10/3681) you will not find research on how it actually happened on a mechanical level.

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

@natedog, to call a motor protein, or any protein, ’simple’ is totally lame. cells are not simple. and neither are any of their parts. people play it off like life began as some simple goo or whatever; when the chasm between nonlife and life is staggering and profoundly different. It’s not simple, but its not an impossible task, either. Lookup some stuff about ATP synthase, which is your basic rotary motor protein. All the parts work together beautifully, but there are also examples each of the individual components serving a purpose on their own. There are intermediate transition examples of… Read more »

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

“if you simply go to google images and google “bacterial flagellum motor” you will see thousands of pictures of the things. it is a motor in the literal sense and all the other senses.” WRONG. I’m way past google images. If read my paper, that was published in Physics Review, that I linked to, it shows that myosin can best be described by non-processive stochastic methods, making it fundamentally different from an electric motor. That’s not even an original idea, my adviser and I just developed a modification to the theory that analytically treats the asymmetric rate distribution. You don’t… Read more »

natedog
Member

you still fail to even attempt to address my point. now who’s being ‘deliberately ignorant’ and making pointless conversation? i’m not talking about slime. i am talking about your body. the HUMAN body. evolution says that it happened in sooo many successive steps, a, b, c, d, e, f……..w, x, y, z (‘a’ being your single celled organisms and ‘z’ being the body we have today) but you can’t reverse the process and start taking parts out of the body… please address this specifically with the human body, not some ‘slime mold colonies’. i mean really. and you cannot even… Read more »

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

“but you can’t reverse the process and start taking parts out of the body…” I don’t know why you are obsessed with that being a necessary condition. It’s called an irreversible process. The parts of the body evolved codependently. At some point, an ancestor to humans in a different environment with differently specialized organs survived without bones, analogously to an earthworm. But if you remove the bones from a human, they cannot survived (easily). There is no contradiction there. Fossil record before fish is tricky, because there is no hard material to fossilize, but fish to amphibian might look like… Read more »

Caio
Member

“most every major plant and animal body type had ‘evolved’ shortly after the cambrian explosion at the beginning of the fossil record anyway.” All that other stuff you said is fine, though I have my suspicions and all, but this? This? This is some bullshit created by a pop-sci writer, and virtually every legitimate scientist specialing in that sort of thing strongly disagrees. I forget the name of the fella, and but he was the dude who took the second look at those fossils they found up in the BC mountains a while back. I could look up the name… Read more »

Caio
Member

Oh, sorry, dude. If you want me to look it up, you’re going to have to wait 5 minutes and nine seconds because The Final Countdown came on and I have to rock my cock straight off. It’s like a personal theme song for me.

brb2rock

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

Caio, I think you’re talking about Stephen Jay Gould and his excellent book “Wonderful Life” about the Burgess Shale in BC and how the initial reassembling of fossils was flawed by the bias of the investigators to match modern types of species. natedog, now that I think about it, I think your problem is looking for a deterministic mechanism for evolution, when natural selection is a statistical process. Look at the webbing on between your fingers and toes. Some people have more other people have less, right? And isn’t that webbing similar to the fins of a fish and the… Read more »

Caio
Member

hooo that took some time to wind down from. newai, christianity vs. evolution:

comment image

I’m off. Whatever your persuasion, Natty Dread wish you an irie christmas and a dancehall new year.

natedog
Member

you’re just not getting my flow here. just saying that the parts of the body developed co-dependantly is rubbish. you say it can happen, but you cannot show how it happens. you can say ‘mutation’ and ‘natural selection’ but you cannot show the way. you just point to a path and say that we came down it. having more or less webbing between fingers and toes has nothing to do with how a system like a circulatory or respiratory can come to be in a step by step method. you say these systems evolved together, but that really is asinine.… Read more »

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

“how a system like a circulatory or respiratory can come to be in a step by step method.” Circulatory system is a good example of step-by-step evolution. There are worms that have no circulatory system, interstitial fluid spread nutrients by diffusion. There are animals that have only a dorsal vessel and there is no distinction between the blood the interstitial fluid. Then other tube crossing that dorsal vein creating a kind of gridwork. Then specialized muscles that can help the flow. All the way up to closed circulatory systems with highly specialized heart and strong distinction between blood and interstitial… Read more »

natedog
Member

YOU ARE IGNORING MY POINT!!! how many times do i have to ask the question? you give no mechanism on how this could happen! here are the steps that link gives for the way that the eye ‘might have evolved’: * photosensitive cell * aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve * an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin * pigment cells forming a small depression * pigment cells forming a deeper depression * the skin over the depression taking a lens shape * muscles allowing the lens to adjust but this is all just… Read more »

natedog
Member

and as for this part of your post: 1) “so why isn’t life pooping up in junk drawers around the country?” Because there is already competition from specialized life for available nutrients and resources. 2)“why don’t we see transformers ‘evolving’ out of junk yards or land fills?” Really? WTF? 1) what possible competition-or specialized life- is there in a junk drawer? 2) my point here is that there are already formed mechanical parts in a junk yard. there are many machines that are really not too far off from being complete and in working order. would it not be easier… Read more »

TrikYodz
Member

to answer the original question
no it doesnt

noimorti
Member

it does when one of the two options has been the cause of repression, hatred and violence for over 2 thousand years.

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

“i said that the mechanics involved in biochemistry cannot come about by a step by step method.” which is equivalent to saying “I don’t understand who the mechanics involved in biochemistry come about by a step by step method”. It’s not as if you’ve offered a mathematical proof that it cannot be done. “how do you get a photosensitive cell in the first place” Even single-celled organisms like bacteria are light sensitive. So its not a complicated property. Lots of long chain conjugated molecule are responsive to light in the UV-vis spectrum. So you have a cell that mutates to… Read more »

natedog
Member

do you not think it would be easier for machines on the macroscopic level to develop into a life form than the complex molecules on the microscopic level? DNA and RNA are much more than sugar and phosphate residues. you are totally leaving out the all important ENCODED INFORMATION carried by the nucleic acids. it is not like the amino acids can just arrange themselves all willy nilly. they have to be in a certian order. if you untangle the chromosomes in the DNA from just one of your cells, you would have a string 6 feet long. IN EACH… Read more »

The Matrix: Rebooted
Member

“it is not like the amino acids can just arrange themselves all willy nilly. they have to be in a certian order.” Actually they can and do. Free amino acids in solution will form near arbitrary arrangements. “you can not have just 25 chromosomes and expect a human to come out of them. you have to have 26. ” “you cannot offer up any experiments that can show an incomplete, but viable, human.” This happens all the time. Sometimes its a problem, sometimes it goes undetected. Your whole machine argument is a total disaster, because we have many, many cases… Read more »

natedog
Member

i’ve never cracked a book. and there are no alternatives to evolution.

knogoodidleft
Member

Yeah tiki, it doesn’t matter.

because it does not matter how we got here, its just that we are here.

So what if your right, then what? wtf are you gonna do? pull an Al Gore and win a prize? So what? If thats all you live for… your not living for much

TrikYodz
Member

yeah
meh
it really doesnt matter

colin
Member

this is fucking retarded you are all childish.
i wore a pair of ass tight jeans to school today and a lot of people commented on them. my point is the fact that they were concerning themselves with MY LIFE. why do you people care about other peoples lives, views, or any other shit like that? its fucking retarded.
you people act like little kids arguing over fucking pokemon cards.
get a life off the internet.
except for tiki, cuz im guessing this is how he makes some money.
pumpkin pie with whipped cream.
duh.

howdydoodee
Member
howdydoodee

lordpartytime, you are so right. i don’t think christians go out and bash atheists, why do atheists have to bash christians? it seems it’s just part of the pecking order. starting to notice a trend? i wonder why there are so few christains today.

fracked again
Member

What? So few who?

nyoki
Member

What!? Try turning that around. How can you possibly think that Christians don’t bash atheists and that they are somehow the underdog?

Uncle Twinkle-toes
Guest
Uncle Twinkle-toes

You do realize if you choose to be an atheist that doesn’t mean you believe in one existing scientific theory and leave nothing up to debate what so ever, as a matter of fact as an atheist you don’t have to believe that any existing theories are correct or incorrect. That’s the great thing about being an atheist, you choose what to believe and don’t have to blindly devote your entire life to one belief according to your faith (faith by definition believing in something without proof).



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