from the hilariously funny Russels Teapot
Jejemiah 10:2-4
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December 11, 2007 at 9:05 am
Christians are so dumb. Haha. Just kidding.
December 11, 2007 at 10:16 am
Although I agree the idea of bringing a tree inside and decorating it is a Wiccan tradition that pre-dates our idea of Christmas by centuries, this passage is seriously misquoted.
This passage does not mention trees, instead it mentions “wooden idols”. Look it up.
December 11, 2007 at 10:24 am
No Kerry. No. Wiccan is pretty new-age crap. Wiccans are people trying to be Pagan. Paganism is old.
December 11, 2007 at 10:25 am
Jim Gaffigan has a great standup routine in which he relates Christmas traditions to the actions of a drunk man. It’s spot on and rather hilarious.
December 11, 2007 at 10:34 am
Here is some help christians, but I would also like to point out that the cross would be a form of idolatry and thus Jeremiah seems to be speaking about it. tsk tsk…
www.wcg.org/lit/church/holidays/trees.htm
December 11, 2007 at 10:38 am
Magister,
Kind of. Saying Wiccans are people trying to be Pagans is like saying Catholics are people trying to be Christians. Wiccan are a class of pagan belief.
The belief system of Wiccans is very old. They are often referred to as “Dirt Worshippers” as the celebrate and live in harmony with the Natural world.
December 11, 2007 at 11:18 am
Wicca is Pagan only in sense that anything non-Christian is Pagan. The belief system of Wicca is about a hundred years old and has little to no resemblance to any pre-Christian belief systems.
If you know more than I do, Kerry, I’d be very interested to hear about any source of Wiccan beliefs that is pre-19th century.
December 11, 2007 at 11:33 am
Wow, what the fuck nasty element wandered into this thread?
Pagan comes from an old Latin word meaning ‘redneck’. It refers to the fact that the cities were quicker to adopt Christianity than city folk, back in the day. It refers, then, to all pre-christian european religions, and in my life, I’ve mainly seen it used as a historical term with this very narrow meaning. For example, I’ve never heard a Buddhist called Pagan, nor have I, in my years studying the history of Canada’s first nations, heard the followers of the Canadian religions refered to as ‘Pagan’. In all my time studying history, it’s always refered to pre-christian European beliefs.
Seeing as the vast majority of Wicca (founded 1954) is derived from a hoge-pdge of *Christian* (realistically if not dogmatically) folk beliefs from mainly the late middle ages, Wicca is not only *not* Pagan, but only a step away from Abrahamistic. It looks to me like, essentially, a bunch of non-biblical Christian myths sewed together to look as non-Christian as possible. But, hey, call it Pagan if you want. You’re fooling only yourself.
December 11, 2007 at 11:34 am
*It refers to the fact that the cities were quicker to adopt Christianity than COUNTRY folk, back in the day*
sorry, early morning here.
December 11, 2007 at 11:37 am
Hey reboot,
I am not a scholar or anything, but the beliefs of the Wiccans are based largely upon many old religions that pre-date the modern era.
The modern day Wiccan movement (modern being post-1950s) is based upon a religion that has been carried on in secret for centuries. They practiced in private for so long out of fear of persecution. I cannot give you a link now because I am at work.
December 11, 2007 at 11:59 am
Caio, that’s basically what I thought Wicca was, but I’m willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt. Addendum: the word Pagan was definitely used to describe Muslims.
Kerry, the first two pages of a google search basically confirms what I thought: that Wicca was invented in 20th century with explicit influence from Alester Crowley and implicit influence from LotR. I was just wondering if you had any information that wasn’t widely available on the internet. For example, even if Wicca was carried out in secret , we should be able to do a scholarly comparison between groups that had no direct contact to determine which beliefs actually have been around for centuries and which beliefs were recently invented.
December 11, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Paganism (from Latin paganus, meaning “country dweller, rustic”) is a term which, from a Western perspective, has come to connote a broad set of spiritual or cultic practices or beliefs of any folk religion, and of historical and contemporary polytheistic religions in particular.
The term can be defined broadly, to encompass the faith traditions outside the Abrahamic monotheistic group of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The group so defined includes the Indian religions (such as Hinduism, Jainism), Native American religions and mythologies and Shinto as well as non-Abrahamic ethnic religions in general. More narrow definitions will not include any of the world religions and restrict the term to local or rural currents not organized as civil religions. Characteristic of pagan traditions is the absence of proselytism and the presence of a living mythology which explains religious practice.[1]
The term “pagan” is a Christian adaptation of the “gentile” of Judaism, and as such has an inherent Christian or Abrahamic bias, and pejorative connotations among Westerners,[2] comparable to heathen, and infidel, mushrik and kafir (كاÙÂر) in Islam. For this reason, ethnologists avoid the term “paganism,” with its uncertain and varied meanings, in referring to traditional or historic faiths, preferring more precise categories such as polytheism, shamanism, pantheism, or animism.
Since the later 20th century, “pagan” or “paganism” has become widely used as a self-designation by adherents of neo-paganism.[3]
Wikipedia bitches. TFD defines it as any non Christian, Jew, or Muslim. And that tends to be the definition people tend to use.
December 11, 2007 at 12:51 pm
Reboot: Good point.
Merthsoft: There is no way that Native American religions are commonly described as Pagan. I know most of the experts on various Nations around this part of the world: Many were my professors. I have spent countless hours discussing and pleading and sitting around small talking with various councils of elders. I have read virtually every word written in the nineteenth century on Western Canada and the NW US. I myself could be called a world expert in at least one obscure tribe’s history. With the exception of the ‘Piikani’, which is sometimes pronounced like ‘pegan’ or ‘pegany’ by most locals, as the Blackfoot ‘i’ sounds like ‘e’, I have rarely, if ever, heard a First Nations person described as Pagan.
I’m no expert in the religions of the far East, but, again, never outside of the wikipedia context. And, frankly, when it comes to anything that could be considered the slightest bit controversial, even Wikipedia has to admit that it’s total crap:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Wikipedia
Wikipedia, bitches. And that doesn’t even begin to scratch the surfase, considering all the bad equations wikicritics have been sucessfully maintaining, even in non-mathmatical topics.
December 11, 2007 at 1:21 pm
yes morbo, spot on.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjJCIbC9sxA
its awesome
December 11, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Instead of Wikipedia, try going to your local library and looking at old encyclopedias and actual books.
They are closer to the actual source and have not been diluted over time.
The reason legends and facts are skewed and forgotten is that they are tinkered with to fit the values of society of the time.
After a while people forget the original story and accept the edited version as fact.
Christopher Columbus, anyone? The vast astronomical knowledge of the Maya?
The Easter Bunny? Wiccans? Pagans? Jesus?
Every generation adds or takes away from these depending on their biases.
In the future we’ll wind up with Wikipedia. Wait. Shit.
What does the Easter Bunny have to do with the resurrection of Christ? Nothing.
It’s an old Wiccan legend about a bird who stayed behind for the Winter and was changed into a rabbit by a Goddess in order to survive.
Hence the eggs left by a bunny. Just another example of legends being stolen or skewed.
The idea of bringing a “Christmas” tree into your house for the Winter solstice is old as well.
It’s to celebrate the life of the evergreen while all others “die” in the Winter. It’s a symbol of everlasting life.
I don’t want to argue about this anymore.
Somebody post something making fun of me so I can laugh.
December 11, 2007 at 1:42 pm
check this kerry, pretty funny, i laughed.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Hf6L1eQBc&feature=related
He did a jesus joke and was electricuted, was the best show I ever seen, and it helped my faith <–lol
December 11, 2007 at 3:28 pm
Still my point is valid that Wiccan traditions don’t predate anything. Maybe except Scientolgy.
December 11, 2007 at 8:18 pm
ZOMG!! CHRISTMAS TREES ARE BLASPHEMOUS!!!!