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It might just be ‘atheists’ rather than ‘athiests’, but nonetheless – true.
you know, this argument falls flat on its face. Just because God is willing but not able to stop evil doesnt make him malevolent. It means he favors our Free will over his want to protect us.
Its like a teacher, he can tell you what to write on the test, but doesn’t. Does that mean he wants you to fail? no it means he wants you to learn.
If he values free will so much, why send us to hell for choosing the wrong religion?
If you have the ability to help someone, do not do so is morally reprehensible. Also, the concept of free will is man created.
oh boy…here we go, again.
Religion is old as dirt, move on.
I’d hardly call the last 1900 years winning.
Theists cannot prove that there IS a god.
Atheists cannot prove that there is NOT a god.
The whole difference is the FAITH in a higher power, something that cannot be proven.
Now that we have that clear, can we PLEASE move on?
Gah – if you’re trying to convince some one,
Spell the motherfucking word right.
Otherwise, you can quote old dead guys all you want, but that doesn’t make you look any more intelligent.
Epicurus was born in 341 BCE and died in 270 BCE.
TG Geko, you took the wrong branch. Malevolent comes from ‘Able but not willing.’ Free will has nothing to do with it.
T G Geko is right. Free will has everything to do with it.
If I wanted to kill caradoc and God prevented things like that, then it would not be life. Then you can’t download music off the net without paying for it. You can’t look at porn. Who defines evil?
The word “evil” is a bad translation. Replace that with “suffering” and the quote is a much stronger statement. Why doesn’t God prevent earthquakes and tsunamis? Those have nothing to do with free will.
And the free will is still a weak argument. windrider and Geko are basically saying that God has to choose between preventing evil and some worse alternative. But a truly omnipotent being would not have to make such decisions.
You really have 3 options:
1) God doesn’t care about us
2) God is insane
3) God doesn’t exist.
Atheism is optimistic.
malevolent
a. malicious; Astrology, exerting evil influence on. malevolence, n
If malevolent means able and not willing, then every one on earth is malevolent because they could have stopped SOME act of violence SOMEWHERE, but didn’t.
there are more then 3 options maybe there is a higher power that isn’t omnipotent or maybe god likes watching people suffer or god only likes certain people or things or god is sane and cares about humans. how would you measure suffering/evil? does one person suffer more than the next? who gets chosen first or does it all happen at once? all epicurus says is god might not be omnipotent, god could be malevolent, god might create evil, so my definition of god is wrong i must think of a new one or abandon it.
Pff dont you guys get it?
God is like a little kid with a magnifying glass over the earth.
He likes to watch it burn.
Sure is.
I mean, If I was a transdimensional supernatural entity, I’d sure have my fun with these little buggers who believed that they had free will and that there had to be a meaning of life, too.
T G Geko said: “If malevolent means able and not willing, then every one on earth is malevolent because they could have stopped SOME act of violence SOMEWHERE, but didn’t.”
Wait, are we supposed to be gods? Of course human nature is evil/malevolent/whatever, duh.
Or maybe god has stopped the major – human erasing – “evil” things, like an asteroid the size of an x-box smashing or existence into nothingness.
But I stopped believing in magic and the easter bunny and santa claus, and lucifer, and leprechauns a long, long time ago, I kid, I kid, but seriously, there is no god in my world.
“In God We Trust” Can we get a government conspiracist say this is a government conspiracy?
“If malevolent means able and not willing, then every one on earth is malevolent because they could have stopped SOME act of violence SOMEWHERE, but didn’t.”
What, do you mean that I’m malevolent because some person is getting beaten in China and I’m not stopping that from happening? I’m willing to prevent acts of violence, but not always able – I’m not a god.
“It means he favors our Free will over his want to protect us.”
…which means that he does not favor protecting us; therefore, we go back to Epicurus’ argument.
Adams’ description of the Babel fish also triggered a digression about the existence of God, since the Babel fish was put forth as a fideist example for the non-existence of a deity:
“ Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God. The argument goes something like this:
“I refuse to prove that I exist,” says God, “for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.”
“But,” says Man, “the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don’t. Q.E.D.”
“Oh dear,” says God, “I hadn’t thought of that,” and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
“Oh, that was easy,” says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.
Most leading theologians claim that this argument isn’t worth a pair of fetid dingo’s kidneys, but that didn’t stop Oolon Colluphid from making a fortune with his book Well That About Wraps It Up For God.
for more compelling liteature on God’s fuax pas try these excellent reads:
“Where God Went Wrong”, “Some More of God’s Greatest Mistakes”, “Who is this God Person Anyway?”, and “Well That About Wraps It Up for God” . – The four books on God by ‘Oolon Colluphid’
Xp~
You ever think that God allows bad things to happen so He can see how we respond? Y’know, being tested? Isn’t that one of the best ways to see who is good and who isn’t?
Just a thought.
Yeah X-Play hasn’t been good since it left tech TV and Morgan Webb’s ginormous chin took over.
Some PBS stations had enough courage to air a three part BBC series on atheism, A Brief History of Disbelief.
www.abriefhistoryofdisbelief.org/
The quote from Epicurus (which needs a modern translation) and the background pic come from that series.
** Holy insight, Batman! God is The Joker. **
Twittering about an alleged god, gods, maybe a divine committee in charge of the universe is unimportant and uninteresting.
The deistic god enthroned by U.S. courts (“in god we trust”) or the god of some double-thinking scientist, or the god of Aquinas simply can not be assumed to be “the” divinity claimed by each big-3 monotheism. (Each as we know is ‘the one true religion.’)
I can have opinions about a fictitious character ‘Hamlet’ as presented by Shakespeare in his play, ‘The Tragedy of Hamlet.’ I can also have opinions about a mythological being ‘God’ as presented in the synoptic gospels of ‘The New Testament.’
All I know about these characters is what I can read in pages directly devoted to them — in the primary sources. I can no more find ‘God’ by doing astronomical research than I can disinter ‘Hamlet’s’ bones in a chapel at Elsinore.
When Nietzsche said, “God is dead” he added a gloss — “. . . belief in the Christian God has become unbelievable.”
** the obscenity of comic book monotheism is just a front **
The almighty lords of dualism: Yahweh, God, Allah are each the moral equivalent of a comic book super-villain. God is The Joker.
Sacred comix nonetheless enjoy fanatical cult followings. Biblical exegesis is the intellectual equivalent of geeks parsing Batman. Theology is third-rate fan fiction.
Don’t however mistake political ideology for religious belief. Wherever political ideology reduces to politico-theology, secular society fails. To the true believer: Secularism corrupts. Tolerance capitulates to evil. Only the “pure of heart” (= self-righteous bigots) are saved from their (nonexistent) sins.
Holy text is merely pretext. Ideology masquerading as religion bamboozles the masses, the media. Telemullahs there, televangelists here.
Real terrorist activity in the US: xians undermining the Constitution, trashing biological sciences, and perverting education to suit a totalitarian ideology of social control and cultural domination.
The disgusting wannabe dictator Bush represents only a failed prototype.
Home-grown christo-fascists threaten the life of the Republic far more than all so-called Islamo-fascists combined.
bipolar2
copyright 2007
Frznagn said: “You ever think that God allows bad things to happen so He can see how we respond? Y’know, being tested? Isn’t that one of the best ways to see who is good and who isn’t?
Just a thought.”
When some sicko kidnaps and rapes a 6 year old little girl… who exactly is being tested?
If god existed and was truly worthy of the title then why doesn’t he just turn off whatever it is that makes people do things like that.
alright, all you neo-fascist christians… try this one on for size:
Take all the arguments you use in your arsenal in which to dismiss all other faiths, religions and general atheists. Now, apply it to your own. Tell me what you discover!
While you’re at it… ponder this:
I question god daily… going so far as to say “if you’re really that powerful… just get rid of me right now… and save your followers from future embarassment by yours truly”. You know what? I’m still here. Divine entity, indeed. Might as well hitch your wagon to something more than conjecture and silly stories.
its funny that we need to place faith in something that doesnt exist kinda like santa. if the presents were coming from your parents they would be just another thing provided for you. the idea of a faat man absconding wih your cookies and milke and replacing them with gifts gives a sense of charity and goodness in the world.
are we that insecure about humanity that we need to find soething to make it all better and show us the way? fuck we are imature as the dominat species, VOTE THE PANDAS IN
this may seem incoherent i was tired when writing and i couldnt be bothered reading previous points soif i repeat someone i dont fucking care
The way I see it:
Religion= Trying to explain things that science has yet to prove.
And here is something you never hear a boxer on the receiving end of an ass beating say:
“I’d like to thank Jesus for allowing me to get my ass whooped tonight…”
TT
Lets think about this (freewill) critically, we will start from the beginning;
Eve as we all know is given the free will to make a choice, to eat the fruit or not eat the fruit, she is forewarned that God doesn’t want her eating it. So Eve makes the choice and go against Gods freewill, which begins mans decent into suffering and hell, I would not call this favoring free will, it does how ever favor obedience at all cost even when no real harm has been done to anybody or any thing.
Its kinda like saying Hitler favored the Jews, just as long as the Jews didn’t exist.
Yes, freewill is never accompanied by responsibility or regulation. Freewill can only exist in a ethicless murder-orgy.
Noimorti, you’re a fucking idiot. Never fucking post on MCS again.
Oh, yeah, and it wasn’t just a fruit you fucking dimwit, it was the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. I fucking distain genesis, but even I can appreciate the symbolic beauty of the story. This is going to be pearls before swine but I’m giving you some advice: as you contemplate the MCS silence I swear to fuck I will impose upon you, try to look past your own ignorant smartass smugness and have a think about what non-literal truths that story might suggest.
should you switch ethicless for moralless because you know morals come from the sky and ethics come from peoples brains
it suggest that good and evil are a fruit which are combined into knowledge and that man should not eat it, so by your standards my ignorance should be divine considering we are not to partake in the fruit of knowledge.
get your voodoo dolls ready kids, it looks like this is going to get bloody :O
There’s a barn in Texas with a giant fucking target on the side right now.
Here’s a 5-minute course in not sounding like a fucking moron when it comes to mythology:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epimetheus_%28mythology%29
Local First Nations I study have stories that are almost identical in message and sybolism, usually involving the crow, but sometimes another figure like the Old Man or such in the prairies, where there aren’t many crows. In fact, virtually every belief system – including Spider Man – carries the same basic message. I would say that it’s so universal, it’s probably something as innate and wired into our brains. In fact, ol’ Sharp Shootin Noimorti seems to be the only human being ever who doesn’t get it even on reflection.
To stick with the subject at hand with scarecrow tactics you are presenting aside, the symbolism of which we are speaking of stands for the tree of knowledge and eating its fruit, it is not about committing an evil act, it is about going against gods will and a subtle hint that going against goods will is evil, which means you are strongly not recommended not to use your free will.
As you might remember I was debating the fact that God favors freewill as T.g Geko suggest,
not the fact that people are capable of bad things
Can I ask you since you are the expert here,
What damage is done when you eat a piece of fruit?
How evil was the fruit (or how good)?
Did the fruit resemble a Mr Potato head superman and Mr potato head lex luther and did they have fruity little battles?
If some one put the tree of knowledge in front of you what would you do,
A sit there and stare
b chop it down
C eat its fruit
Merry Christmas everybody.
i am missing your really intelligent answers, if you ever feel like making a rebuttal, hopefully a cognitive well structured answer with evidence and a conclusion would be nice.
Since i am so lost perhaps it would be helpful if you explained the non-literal truths of the story.
Or maybe i should just ask this one question,
do you believe that God favors freewill and why?
Rule 34 god
This inspired me to make a “we win” folder. Yay, kickass atheists!