Nagasaki – Before and After 1945

Nagasaki Before and After 1945

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    SimTek
    Member

    pwn3d? Seriously though, imagine what today’s nukes can do compared to that one.

    PrometheusUnbound
    Member
    PrometheusUnbound

    Yeah. Holy fuck.

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    It’s okay. They can just make more Japanese people.

    Wait they can’t? Negative birth rate? Damn you lord Akira!!!

    iddqd
    Guest

    At least those Japanese deserved it for what they did to China and Korea.

    Caio
    Member

    That’s funny, Iddq, because for all the Japanese did, China and Korea aren’t just Japanese colonies with the occasional run-down reservation.

    And the negative birth rate in one of the most crowded countries ever has got to be the most manufactured crises in the history of Japan, possibly the world.

    Hepathos
    Member

    TETSUOOOO

    Kerry
    Member
    Kerry

    @iddqd,

    I disagree. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were TERRIBLE events. Tens of thousands were killed and the air and water was poisoned for months.

    Also, this was a civilian target, so common folks were the ones who suffered. Common folks that probably were to involved with working and raising kids to care about a war.

    Caio
    Member

    Just to add, Americans didn’t have anything of a clear idea of what was going on in Korea and China (and the philipines and indonesia) till long after the war was over. That goes x20 for China, which was in such a state of chaos, people didn’t start putting the facts together for decades after, when things calmed down a bit.

    What Iddq said is kind of like saying that Napoleon invaded Europe because he didn’t like TV, and knew the seeds of the technology were being planted.

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    I’m with iddqd. Japan still hasn’t owned up to all the evil they did in WWII. The individuals killed by the blast may not have deserved it, but they only have their crazy Emperor to blame for starting the war in the first place. The US got served (Pearl Harbour) and had every right to fight back.

    GrandAdmiralThrawn
    Member

    We should also remember that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were both targets of military imports, being important ports and/or manufacturing centers for the war effort. Yes there were civilians, but this was a war time economy. Those “civilians” were making weapons, loading ships, typing memos to ensure a more fluid transfer of men and equipment, such forth and so on. At what point does a person stop being a civilian when they work for the government? Are the FBI Civilians? A sectary? What if that secretary wears a uniform? I think many would say that Rosy the Riveter would have been… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    In terms of casualties the firebombings of Dresden and Tokyo were worse than Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    wookie_x
    Member

    At the time the bombs were dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, Japan had already lost the war. Their air force was in a shambles. Barely trained teen-agers were flying the planes. The kamikaze was becoming more and more prevalent as a weapon of last resort to pilots who couldn’t hope to survive a dog fight. The Japanese navy had all but been destroyed. More than half of Tokyo had been destroyed by mass fire bombing by huge fleets of American B-29 bombers. More than 3 million Japanese had been killed, 1 million in the last eight months of the war.… Read more »

    Caio
    Member

    Wow, AlexDalek, I’m so glad you put such a great deal of research into your opinions. The Emperor of Japan may have been the figurehead in Japanese propaganda, but he had only slightly more decision-making power than George VI. And it’s kind of hard to say it was their fault: When the Japanese could vote, less than 2% of them could do so, and by 1945 the vote had long been abolished. As for the Japanese not owning up, once again, the Americans/Canadians/Latin Americans still haven’t owned up for the largest genocide in human history. How many nukes do we… Read more »

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    Caio, when did we say ANYTHING close to what you’re trying to pin on me and iddqd? You basic strategy seems to be to misrepresent what others say and then attack the fiction (ie. The Straw man defense).

    I usually avoid calling other posters names, but in this case it has to be said: You are a moron.

    ladyoftheorb
    Member

    Haven’t you ever read that story about Sadako and her cranes? 🙁

    garbledxmission
    Member

    Yes, exactly how is pointing out that the Japanese were no more innocent of war atrocities than any other country “historical revisionism”? To state that Japan was the ONLY country to engage in atrocities would be revising history. There’s plenty of blame to go around, but to start bringing the race issue into it is just small minded, inflammitory nonsense. The Japanese got into the War for the reason most countries have historically done; as an excuse to expand their borders and gain wealth/resources. Caio, you really need to stop reading all the left wing, PC riddled, truly revisionist literature… Read more »

    roamingidiot
    Member

    I LIKE BEANS!

    Sticky
    Member

    Okay. Here’s how it breaks down, the pros and cons of Nagasaki.

    PROS:
    Negated the need for ground invasion, sparing millions of lives on both sides.

    With the rise of nuclear weapons came the rise of the nuclear power plants.

    CONS:
    Even though the targets were designated as militarily valuable, hundreds of thousands of civilians perished.

    Opened a vertiable Pandora’s box of weaponry and applications.

    Sticky
    Member

    And Hiroshima.

    It’s been a very long day.

    Caio
    Member

    Garbled: They didn’t point that out that the Japanese were ‘no more innocent’. That, in fact, was an argument I introduced. They pointed out that the Japanese *deserved* to be bombed. *My* point was that, if a national atrocity earns you an atomic bomb, then we all, likely, deserve them. Or, to put it better: If it is possible to deserve an A-bomb dropped on you, on what scale do we measure how much you deserve it? The attitude that I dislike is the ‘Yes, all Japanese (including modern ones, as Dalek implied) are 100% guilty.” But when *we* do… Read more »

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    Caio: ‘Yes, all Japanese (including modern ones, as Dalek implied) are 100% guilty.”

    There you go putting words in my mouth again. What I said was “Japan still hasn’t owned up to all the evil they did in WWII.“. This is true. See here:

    www.statepress.com/issues/2007/10/12/opinions/702229
    thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2007/10/3/worldupdates/2007-10-03T125804Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_-298334-1&sec=Worldupdates
    www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=39544

    Nice try, but you’re still spewing bullshit.

    pandapower
    Member

    japan tested their biological weapons (mustard gas etc… can’t remember the rest) on koreans and chinese civilians and POWs. they kept korean and chinese slaves after WWII among other heinous crimes committed when they invaded china and other parts of east asia.

    garbledxmission
    Member

    Wow, it just keeps on coming. Ok, Caio, you REALLY need to stop misquoting others or reading what you want to hear into their statements. It’s sloppy and childish, and from your statements, you don’t strike me as either, so quit being lazy. Atrocities had nothing to do whether a country deserved to be bombed. The Japanese attacked the US and knew damn well what the consequences of that could be. The intelligence services of the Allies and Axis powers were all well aware that their respective scientists were working on atomic weapons. It was a case of who would… Read more »

    vygramul
    Member

    A friend of mine is half-Japanese. His Japanese mother credits Hiroshima and Nagasaki for saving her life. She was busy making bamboo spears to defend the home islands from invasion.

    iddqd
    Guest

    Definition of Wapanese: “Wapanese” are decidedly caucasian individuals who, by means of thoroughly warped postmodern acculturation processes, have come to the decision that it is in their best interest to act as if they were denizens of the nation of Japan. Interestingly, Wapanese are generally though of as “failures” and rejects within their own culture. Social scientists such as myself speculate that it was their failure to gain acceptance within their own culture than has lead many a white geek to seek out Japan’s culture as a surrogate; however, they’d be shattered to know that the insular and somewhat racist… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    “atrocities like Hiroshima were totally uncalled for” atrocities are always uncalled for, that’s the difference between an atrocity and a legitimate military action. But thank you, iddqd, for posting that scholarly and informative piece (of crap). When people like Oppenheimer and McNamara say what we did was a war crime, then I think its really hard to argue with that position. garbledxmission: what non-wiki scholarly works would you recommend that justify the use of atomic weapons? People set up the false dichotomy between atomic bombs and invasion, but there were other options. The Japanese navy was destroyed and the military… Read more »

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    I think the minute Japan launched biological attacks on China (rockets filled with “the plague”), they lost any moral defense against a nuclear strike. A WMD is a WMD. And unlike Iraq, Japan actually had and used them.

    And if Japan had developed nukes before the US, there would have been a lot smaller population in certain parts of the world today. Who knows, Caio and Reboot might not be here to share their boners for Japan.

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    They did it first, stops being a legitimate justification in kindergarten, AlecDalek. Interestingly that’s the exactly same justification used by Osama bin Laden -“And as I was looking at those towers that were destroyed in Lebanon, it occurred to me that we have to punish the transgressor with the same — and that we had to destroy the towers in America so that they taste what we tasted, and they stop killing our women and children.”
    so congratu-fucking-lations, AlecDalek, you have all morality and intelligence a terrorist.

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    Again with the putting words in my mouth. I said they lost any moral defense. As in, you can’t say that Japan wouldn’t have done the same thing to the US. I didn’t say anything about “they did it first so it’s okay”. Shut up and stop making yourself look so stupid, reboot.

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    Then quit using words you don’t understand. “Moral defense” means to defend the morality of your actions. Japan’s action aren’t under moral scrutiny in this discussion, so they why do they need a moral defense? Taken literally your sentence is completely gibberish(were they using morals as an actual physical defense? Then they lost that shield when they launched rockets? No wonder they lost the war.) Maybe I was giving you too much credit by trying to read some meaning into your non-sequitur. Aren’t you implying that since Japan had used WMDs and might have done so in the future that… Read more »

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    reboot, you must be a real hit with the ladies!

    You’re just not getting it. No one saying it’s okay to nuke anyone. We’re saying the Japanese weren’t innocent. They started the war, fought dirty, and then foolishly decided to keep fighting to the last man.

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    Actually, iddqd said that “Japanese deserved it” then you said, “I’m with iddqd.” Sounds to me like you both thought it was justified(i.e. ok) to drop nukes.
    And I really am a hit with the ladies 🙂

    iddqd
    Guest

    Caio: I wouldn’t be surprised if many Americans (especially both Republicans and Democrats) know what the fuck is going on over in the middle east. Mention Six-Day War, IPO, and Kadima Party and you’re speaking Greek to the average American. It’s the leaders that know what was truly going on and their actions reflect that. So what are you trying to say Caio. I guess Pearl Harbour wasn’t so bad was it? I guess we should’ve let Japan invade us instead so they could enslave, torture, and sodomize us as they wish and throw the world back into the stone… Read more »

    Silver
    Member

    First of all Reboot, despite the fact that he is an unforgivable jackhole Osama is a brilliant man. He knew that the US would invade a country after his attack, he knew that would create hundreds of new angry followers, and he knew the perfect tactic to use against us. NEVER EVER underestimate your enemy. Look what happened to the US when they did. It is incredibly difficult to get people to believe in you and do what you want them to, let alone getting them to die for you. That said I hope he dies a slow torturous death.… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    iddqd, one question: what the hell do you mean by IPO? Initial Public Offering? Israeli Philharmonic Orchestra? Do you mean the PLO? You are intelligent as you are eloquent. Silver, I agree 90% with what you said. The only thing I disagree with is that Japan did not deserve to be brought to justice, the individuals responsible deserved to be brought to justice. And the people in Japan today aren’t any more responsible for WWII than Americans today would be responsible for slavery; why should they pay? “According to Japanese tabulation, 5,700 Japanese individuals were indicted for Class B and… Read more »

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    reboot was one of the first to speak out against nuclear annihilation! Thanks to him, it will never happen again. He’s convinced me that nuclear explosions are bad and that I should try to avoid them.

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    isn’t it past your bedtime, kid? you don’t want to be late for the shortbus in the morning.

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    It’s okay, I’m sleeping with your mom tonight, and she said she’d drive me into school in the morning.

    garbledxmission
    Member

    Reboot, at what point in my post did I allude that “what non-wiki scholarly works would you recommend that justify the use of atomic weapons?” I don’t seem to recall “justifying” the use of them at all. I DID point out the military/government’s tactical/political reasons for using the Atom Bomb, however justified/unjustified it may have been. As I said, and am apparently going to have to reiterate, IT WAS WAR. In WAR you attempt to defeat your ENEMY with as few of your OWN casualties as possible. Something that would not have occurred had the Allies continued fighting the Japanese… Read more »

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    “In 1945 Secretary of War Stimson, visiting my headquarters in Germany, informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act. During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our… Read more »

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    I’m glad reboot cleared that up. Thanks to reboot, the Enola Gay has been retroactively called back, and the bombing is canceled. The Japanese people thank you and wish to gift you with a free box of Men’s Pocky. Next time Japan attacks the US, the US will hold back and pretend nothing happened and not fight back, because the Japanese people are innocent and, in reboot’s opinion, make totally awesome cartoons and knee socks. We thank you for all the time you have spent on this topic.

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    Shut up, kid, the grow ups are talking.

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    Your troll-fu is weak. Once you get some life experience under your belt, you’ll probably come up with much better comebacks.

    iddqd
    Guest

    reboot, get the fuck back to watching Naruto.

    garbledxmission
    Member

    How ironic that you chose quotes from articles written YEARS after the war had ended and the bombings had since been universally condemned. Think maybe all those people were trying to absolve and distance themselves from an horrific event they were themselves responsible for? Ya know, kind of how the Bush Administration is doing now regarding the problems in Iraq? Plus the only person you quoted who offered an alternative to the dropping of the A bomb said this: “[I] concluded that even without the atomic bomb, Japan was likely to surrender in a matter of months. My own view… Read more »

    garbledxmission
    Member

    And THAT gentlemen, is how it’s done.

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    1) that’s not what ironic means 2) You have give no fact OR quotes to back up your statements. It you think there is information to support your position, post a link or cite a sources. I already ask you for your supposed non-wiki source and you STILL haven’t give any. That makes the score 6:0. Go ahead prove me wrong with all the facts that you have to your disposal. 3) Back in undergrad, I took a class on wartime atrocities(humanities requirement). Most of my quotes were pulled from my notes from that class. I did use google for… Read more »

    garbledxmission
    Member

    1)The irony was that you chose to use quotes from people condemning (years later) the very actions they supported at the time of the incident in question. Either they were right then or at the time of the articles. They can’t have it both ways or it means choices have no consequences. Especially choices that killed so many. 2)Why should I bother posting any kind of links or facts? You would either A)ignore them to continue to blindly support your claim or (B)Put up more misleading information to “refute” them. Besides, why should I do your work for you? You… Read more »

    garbledxmission
    Member

    I say good day!

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    reboot criticizing someone for using personal attacks. Pot & Kettle made a black baby.

    I do think you’re right about MacArthur being yanked from the Korean war. I seem to recall it having something to do with requesting the use of nuclear weapons.

    uh oh, here we go again…

    garbledxmission
    Member

    Hee hee. Black baby. You are a bad man Alec.

    It’s funny that Mac got pulled from active duty for that when he claimed years later that he was against using atomic weapons.

    Silver
    Member

    Hmm, I had forgotten how inefficient those bombs were. The image displays almost no permanent ground damage ie there is no giant crater. Were the bombs air burst or ground? Probably air.

    The Matrix: Rebooted
    Member

    Yeah, Silver the a-bombs were air bursts and actually less destructive than most conventional bombing raids (ie firebombing) at the time. The only thing that was impressive is that it was done by one bomber and one bomb. “Mac” got pulled for wanting to attack China and for getting his army annihilated at Ichon. “American Caesar” is an excellent biography about the man. The only person I have personally insulted in this thread is you, Alec, because you are a snot nosed brat. What can I say, facts are facts. garbledxmission, Why do you think that I would ignore any… Read more »

    Silver
    Member

    The only truly effective way to use a nuclear weapons is to target high population/high density areas. They can’t be used to “Clear the way” because of the radiation and firestorms they generate. It would be a tactical waste of firepower to use them on naval targets unless they are in dock and gathered pearl harbor style in one area. They are in the end the perfect weapon to be used against civilians as that’s the only way to maximize the damage dealt. Using them against a purely military target is also overkill because it leaves the area useless after… Read more »

    Silver
    Member

    Or maybe I should say it’s a waste anywhere…

    Alec Dalek
    Member

    Silver, I think this is the type of bomb you’re looking for. Very efficient.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_bomb

    Silver
    Member

    Oh, You mean Fuel-air bombs.

    Yeah, those are amazing. I always thought that they should be used more rather than just making bigger bombs make more efficient ones.



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